[kj] Jaz Straw - veils/chastity belts/dark ages

Sat Oct 14 11:33:11 EDT 2006

It's not like male circumcision which is also barbaric in my opinion and
is carried out shortly after birth usually.

It is carried out when girls are maybe 7, 8 or 9.

There is a woman who travels around tribes doing it and so it depends on
when she is visiting that area.

Girls have their whole outer genital area cut away with a rusty old
blade and no anaesthetic. They are then stitched together so there is
just a small hole for them to wee through. This ensures that the future
husband gets a virgin and the girl does not dishonour her father/family.
Girls are usually married as soon as they start their periods as that
means they have become fertile and a woman. Their father chooses the
husband for them and it is a transaction between the men.

On the wedding night the woman is 'openned' by her husband. She will
then spend her life having babies etc.

This operation can also cause terrible gynaelogical problems for women,
etc

I have read about this and have read first hand accounts from women
themselves.

Juliet

-----Original Message-----
From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
On Behalf Of flight Bringer
Sent: 14 October 2006 15:23
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: RE: [kj] Jaz Straw - veils/chastity belts/dark ages

"Lots of African women gladly go for circumcision and have their
clitorises cut out".

  I believe that this "operation" is carried out on children before they
are 
aware of the situation. They dont have a choice in the matter . I would
say 
that its all about Male domination over females , rather than beliefs
about 
cleanliness . Women are less likely to stray from their Husbands if they

dont have any urges in that department .
   Its an horrendous act of butchery and the pain must be immense for
the 
Children .
Which asks the question : Do we have a right to try and put a stop to
this 
practice , or is it interfering with other cultures .
  They also found the torso of an African boy in the Thames, he was the 
victim of witchcraft , also Victoria Columby(sp!!) suffered an horrific 
death due to relatives believe she was possessed.
  Do we have a right to impose our Western Christian standards on them ,
or 
is it seen as imposing our values on other cultures ?
   Should we accept it ?

>From: "Juliet Pleming" <price-pleming at tiscali.co.uk>
>Reply-To: price-pleming at tiscali.co.uk,"A list about all things Killing
Joke 
>(the band!)"<gathering at misera.net>
>To: <ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk>,"'A list about all things Killing Joke
(the 
>band!)'"<gathering at misera.net>
>Subject: RE: [kj] Jaz Straw - veils/chastity belts/dark ages
>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:53:57 +0100
>
>Yes, I will continue to support you on this one Ade,
>
>I agree totally. We have to be careful when interacting with other
>cultures because a lot of communication is based on having a shared
>background, and involves more than language. There are a lot of
unspoken
>gestures etc. However, when someone from the outside enters a dominant
>culture, the burden should be on them to fit into the prevailing
>culture. Sure, they don't have to let go of their own culture
altogether
>and peripherally other cultures can enrich a dominant culture. But the
>subculture is something to share with other people of the same culture
>and not necessarily something to force onto others. I think it's all
the
>wrong way round at the moment with our culture bending over backward to
>accommodate the intricacies of others. The burden is on THEM if they
>want to join our culture they should be the ones to learn and take part
>in our culture.
>
>And, I do think it is oppressive for women to have to wear veils, and
it
>does smack of the dark ages when men locked women in chastity belts. It
>is a practice based on ignorance and fear. Just because the women in
>that culture have internalized the idea to the extent that they believe
>it makes them safer, doesn't make it right. There is a well known
>phenomenon where those who are oppressed take on the values of the
>oppressor and internalize the belief and learn to believe it is for
>their own good.
>
>Lots of African women gladly go for circumcision and have their
>clitorises cut out. No man will marry them otherwise. They don't think
>of it in terms of having to do it because of that though. They
>internalize the belief so much that they think that somehow they are
>unclean unless they are butchered.
>
>I have used that example again but there are plently of others I could
>use.
>
>Juliet
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gathering-bounces at misera.net
[mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
>On Behalf Of ade
>Sent: 11 October 2006 23:01
>To: 'Jim Harper'; 'A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)'
>Subject: RE: [kj] Jaz Straw
>Importance: High
>
>Whitey - I think it got the point across well ! :)
>
>If you ordered food from a restaurant in Big Gay Paris, who
compromises?
>The dude expects you to
>have made the effort, so you have to order in the local tongue.
>Otherwise the face gets pulled & the
>interest in your order wanes.. (from previous experience! :)
>
>Seems pretty one-way too, but I think entirely fair & I don't see it as
>prejudice - it's about making
>the effort. I think compromises HAVE to be made when it comes to
>communication, in order to
>'tune-in' to each other, but that does not render each party
>transparent/devoid of culture.
>
>
>ade
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Harper [mailto:jimharper666 at yahoo.co.uk]
>Sent: 11 October 2006 21:21
>To: ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk; A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>band!)
>Subject: RE: [kj] Jaz Straw
>Forget the lazy characterizations, please, they're not applicable here.
>
>I was simply posing the question: if one person feels there is no
>impediment to communication, and another does, should Person A simply
>accede to Person B's convenience? What compromise do you recommend?
>Person A removes the veil, and Person B does their best to understand?
>Not much of an equal compromise, is it? Person A changes, Person B
>doesn't have to do anything?
>
>ade <ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>So, in fact, the whole thing is whitey's problem & there's no
compromise
>required? Give And Take.
>
>
>
>http://www.flipsidemovies.com
>http://jimharper.blogspot.com
>Send instant messages to your online friends
>http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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