[kj] OT: Final Word on 'Christian Rawk'
Alexander Smith
gathering@misera.net
Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:39:34 -0500
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****ALEX'S FINAL WORD ON THE GREAT CHRISTIAN ROCK WIND-UP OF 2003****
Culture Virus et al.,.......
Seems we're all a little more reasonable on Sunday mornings. Wonder why
that is!
Look, in all candor, my initial comments about Evanescence were
basically a dismisive joke. In truth, as Cutlure Virus, pointed out,
their lyrics only *VAGUELY* (from what I can hear) allude to their
faith. But, it has been largely documented that they sprang from the
community of 'Christian Rock'. And seriously --- regardless of your
spiritual leanings, you must admit me this: 'CHRISTIAN ROCK' AS A
VIABLE GENRE is pretty damn awful (please read: CHRISTIAN ROCK and
*NOT* Rock made by Musicians who *HAPPEN* to be Christians. I'm talking
about a SPECIFIC GENRE). Said scene has yet to produce an act that is
capable of transcending the limitations of their genre (i.e. constant
allusions to worshiping the lord) and reached a larger audience. The
only real example that comes to mind is fuckin' Creed (and please,
please, please don't try to tell me that they don't suck!) But all
those other bands: DC3, Jars of Clay and whatnot....regardless of their
spirituality, I just happen to think their music isn't very good and
that they're way too caught up in "the message".
Now, does this mean that I think *ALL* music that is religiously devout
stinks? Hell no. I just bought a compilation of Bhangra music, and that
stuff's pretty damn devout. Perhaps I'm able to tolerate that because
it is so comparitively exotic or more because your average Bhangra
musician doesn't seem to be out to convert me. Maybe I'm wrong about
that.
I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I only wish we were having this
debate over something I'd said with a bit more conviction rather than
as a passing, derisive jibe.
Sorry I told you to shove it up your ass as well, but that's what you
get when you call someone a scarred hypocrite in dire need of
professional help.
"Yeah I know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling thing?"
What's so tough about spelling it out? Worried that the big man
upstairs is going to materialize like Hastur the Unspeakable and smite
thee for blaspheming? (that was a joke, stay calm!)
I'm really not interested in getting into any more stupid spats about
fuckin' Religion (with you *OR* with the mysterious Mr.West) It's such
a hot-button topic that only leads to needless acrimony.
Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Killing Joke.
Amen,
Alex in NYC
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 03:20 AM, culture.virus wrote:
> At 02:33 PM 12/20/03, you wrote:
>
>
>> :::sigh:::
>>
>> Cripes, when did you become such a hateful little creep?
>
> Truly Alex, I'm not hateful regarding this. As a matter of fact in
> general I hold you in pretty high esteem.
>
>> Or is this just some sort've wind-up?
>
> No, but I admit that I can wind things up abit.
>
>> In any event, here's my bottom line on the issue: I may fundamentally
>> disagree with Peter West on a variety of issues, but he's still as
>> entitled to his opinions as I am of mine.
>
> I don't take your responses as being such that you truly think that
> Peter was entitled too them. You and others IMO rightfully slapped him
> a bit for some of his statements. He wasn't just "entitled" too them
> because the list response was to tell him what an awful idiot he was
> and that his position reeked of intolerance and possibly racism. I
> think you and others on this list often display similar tendencies
> towards anyone that is a Christian.
>
>> I'd also like to re-emphasize the fact that the discussion he and I
>> (and several others) were involved with dealt with matters of larger
>> scale than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as
>> entertainment/rock music.
>
> I granted you that before
>
>
>> Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I resent it
>> because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not bug
>> you, but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be
>> rounded up and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their
>> particular brand of prosthletyzing to themselves.
>
> Agenda driven music can be distasteful. And it occurs all over the
> popular music scene. But you didn't say that. You didn't say that Xian
> rock sucks or even that agenda driven music sucks. You said music by
> Xians is automatically moot/sucks. Now maybe didn't mean that.
>
> Evanescence's music isn't of the prosylitizing variety as I pointed
> out in another post so they may suck in general but they are not like
> what you described above. In my experience most Xian artists just want
> to make the best music they can and not betray their beliefs. Do you
> really know that many bands in the little world that is the Xian rock
> scene?
>
> I think we would both agree that making quality music is not easy. In
> addition to the mastery of an instrument it takes things such as
> intelligence, drive, artistic vision and more. To me to say that a
> person of a particular faith is by default not capable of achieving
> such a high level mastery of particular area of human endeavor is the
> equivalent of other negative stereotypes. Do you see why I found your
> statement offensive?
>
>
>> "IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance because
>> you don't automatically despise the output of people who are of other
>> faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since it
>> would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact
>> hypocritical. Now most people, yourself included, might say that this
>> is a minor issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone
>> observing this list from the outside would see that we hold popular
>> music in high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic
>> qualities but for it's potential to impact popular thinking and
>> change society as we know it. So to automatically write off an
>> individual artists output solely because of their faith is to not
>> only limit your own listening choices, but it says something about
>> how you view Xians as a whole if you are so willing to write off
>> their artistic endeavors in a media that you hold in very high
>> esteem."
>>
>> I didn't say I *DESPISED* Christians (that's how you spell it, by the
>> way)
>
> Yeah I know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling thing?
>
>> because of their music, but rather that I don't think it's very
>> good, or at least it's not my cup of tea, or simply that I think it
>> SUCKS (and I still think that) for reasons I've expressed above. For
>> what it's worth, let's expand this.....I prefer my rock music to be
>> ENTIRELY SECULAR.
>
> I can respect that you on the whole would prefer not to be
> prosylitized while listening to music. I can also respect that it's
> not always easy to be indifferent to music if it's lyrical content is
> something that you find particularly offensive or distasteful. Hell
> that's one of the things that conservative religious types will agree
> with you on. But look at your music collection. I'll bet we'll find
> music by acknowledged pagan and magickal types, Rastafarians,
> Buddhists, a Hindi or two, same with Islam, probably someone Jewish.
> I'll bet that some of that music has lyrical content that speaks of
> life from their particular spiritual knothole. Just to keep this
> on-topic, Jaz' lyrics are often spiritual in nature. I'd be willing to
> bet that you wouldn't automatically write-off all those artists just
> because they happen to share a bit about their beliefs in their music.
> If someone comes to you and says "this is a great a band, they've got
> a unique sound, they've got really good songs and they're Xian". Do
> you automatically say to yourself (or out loud), "Xian? No thanks, I
> already know it sucks" or "They could be the band of the decade and I
> still wouldn't own their records"? If your response is similar, but
> you wouldn't have that same response to the same description with the
> word Buddhist or Hindi inserted instead, then I'd say that yes you are
> prejudiced against Xians on that level and perhaps others as well. BTW
> just to show that I know you're not as bad as all that I'll bet you do
> have at least one release by an acknowledged Xian. Fer instance alot
> of people will have a Moby disc.
>
> Damn, long paragraph. Sorry to ramble so.
>
>> I do not decry other people for their respective faiths, but I'd
>> rather not be subjected to music that extols the tennets of said
>> faith. If they want to listen to it, bully for them, but don't ask me
>> to enjoy it.
>>
>> "And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop
>> thumbing your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing
>> this with your parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're
>> obviously horribly scarred."
>>
>> You seem to think that I'm plagued by this, when in truth, I couldn't
>> give less of a damn. But, clearly, you're out either to wind me up or
>> exact revenge for touching on a nerve of yours with something I said
>> earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and your sentiment, and I'd
>> thank you to leave my parents out of this.
>
> That part was a bit of wind up. It was supposed to be laced with
> sarcasm. My apologies for my tone.
>
> Yes you did touch a nerve, I don't like intolerance and I always find
> it distasteful after seeing someone else bawled out for it. As I said,
> I see it on the list often in reference to Xians while intolerance of
> other religious groups would be roundly chastised. Did you see what I
> said about ragheads and god-botherers?
>
>> Shove it up your ass, while you're at it.
>
> Look being accused of intolerance is pretty harsh. I know it's
> something that most of us think we're above. And we may not see it in
> ourselves. People will often say things they don't realize may be
> offensive to people of groups that they may not know well. I think
> you're statements were intolerant and show some prejudice. You feel
> I'm blowing shit way out of proportion and that you are not at all
> intolerant towards Xians. I don't think you deserve to be censured or
> viewed as a mind-numbed bigot. That's not how I would describe you. I
> do think you should consider what I said.
>
>
>> Merry Christmas,
>
> Same to you, seriously
>
>
>> Alex in NYC
>
> I am culturevirus
> _______________________________________________
> Gathering mailing list
> Gathering@misera.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
>
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****ALEX'S FINAL WORD ON THE GREAT CHRISTIAN ROCK WIND-UP OF 2003****
Culture Virus et al.,.......
Seems we're all a little more reasonable on Sunday mornings. Wonder
why that is!
Look, in all candor, my initial comments about Evanescence were
basically a dismisive joke. In truth, as Cutlure Virus, pointed out,
their lyrics only *VAGUELY* (from what I can hear) allude to their
faith. But, it has been largely documented that they sprang from the
community of 'Christian Rock'. And seriously --- regardless of your
spiritual leanings, you must admit me this: 'CHRISTIAN ROCK' AS A
VIABLE GENRE is pretty damn awful (please read: CHRISTIAN ROCK and
*NOT* Rock made by Musicians who *HAPPEN* to be Christians. I'm
talking about a SPECIFIC GENRE). Said scene has yet to produce an act
that is capable of transcending the limitations of their genre (i.e.
constant allusions to worshiping the lord) and reached a larger
audience. The only real example that comes to mind is fuckin' Creed
(and please, please, please don't try to tell me that they don't
suck!) But all those other bands: DC3, Jars of Clay and
whatnot....regardless of their spirituality, I just happen to think
their music isn't very good and that they're way too caught up in "the
message".
Now, does this mean that I think *ALL* music that is religiously
devout stinks? Hell no. I just bought a compilation of Bhangra music,
and that stuff's pretty damn devout. Perhaps I'm able to tolerate that
because it is so comparitively exotic or more because your average
Bhangra musician doesn't seem to be out to convert me. Maybe I'm wrong
about that.
I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I only wish we were having this
debate over something I'd said with a bit more conviction rather than
as a passing, derisive jibe.
Sorry I told you to shove it up your ass as well, but that's what you
get when you call someone a scarred hypocrite in dire need of
professional help.
<color><param>F29D,26EA,29C6</param>"Yeah I know, what is it with you
and Ross and this spelling thing?"</color>
What's so tough about spelling it out? Worried that the big man
upstairs is going to materialize like Hastur the Unspeakable and smite
thee for blaspheming? (that was a joke, stay calm!)
I'm really not interested in getting into any more stupid spats about
fuckin' Religion (with you *OR* with the mysterious Mr.West) It's such
a hot-button topic that only leads to needless acrimony.
Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Killing Joke.
Amen,
Alex in NYC
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 03:20 AM, culture.virus wrote:
<excerpt>At 02:33 PM 12/20/03, you wrote:
<excerpt>:::sigh:::
Cripes, when did you become such a hateful little creep?
</excerpt>
Truly Alex, I'm not hateful regarding this. As a matter of fact in
general I hold you in pretty high esteem.
<excerpt>Or is this just some sort've wind-up?
</excerpt>
No, but I admit that I can wind things up abit.
<excerpt>In any event, here's my bottom line on the issue: I may
fundamentally disagree with Peter West on a variety of issues, but
he's still as entitled to his opinions as I am of mine.
</excerpt>
I don't take your responses as being such that you truly think that
Peter was entitled too them. You and others IMO rightfully slapped him
a bit for some of his statements. He wasn't just "entitled" too them
because the list response was to tell him what an awful idiot he was
and that his position reeked of intolerance and possibly racism. I
think you and others on this list often display similar tendencies
towards anyone that is a Christian.
<excerpt> I'd also like to re-emphasize the fact that the discussion
he and I (and several others) were involved with dealt with matters of
larger scale than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as
entertainment/rock music.
</excerpt>
I granted you that before
<excerpt>Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I resent
it because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not bug
you, but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be
rounded up and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their
particular brand of prosthletyzing to themselves.
</excerpt>
Agenda driven music can be distasteful. And it occurs all over the
popular music scene. But you didn't say that. You didn't say that Xian
rock sucks or even that agenda driven music sucks. You said music by
Xians is automatically moot/sucks. Now maybe didn't mean that.
Evanescence's music isn't of the prosylitizing variety as I pointed
out in another post so they may suck in general but they are not like
what you described above. In my experience most Xian artists just want
to make the best music they can and not betray their beliefs. Do you
really know that many bands in the little world that is the Xian rock
scene?
I think we would both agree that making quality music is not easy. In
addition to the mastery of an instrument it takes things such as
intelligence, drive, artistic vision and more. To me to say that a
person of a particular faith is by default not capable of achieving
such a high level mastery of particular area of human endeavor is the
equivalent of other negative stereotypes. Do you see why I found your
statement offensive?
<excerpt>"IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance
because you don't automatically despise the output of people who are
of other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and
since it would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are
in fact hypocritical. Now most people, yourself included, might say
that this is a minor issue, we're only talking about entertainment.
But anyone observing this list from the outside would see that we hold
popular music in high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic
qualities but for it's potential to impact popular thinking and change
society as we know it. So to automatically write off an individual
artists output solely because of their faith is to not only limit your
own listening choices, but it says something about how you view Xians
as a whole if you are so willing to write off their artistic endeavors
in a media that you hold in very high esteem."
I didn't say I *DESPISED* Christians (that's how you spell it, by the
way)
</excerpt>
Yeah I know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling thing?
<excerpt> because of their music, but rather that I don't think it's
very good, or at least it's not my cup of tea, or simply that I think
it SUCKS (and I still think that) for reasons I've expressed above.
For what it's worth, let's expand this.....I prefer my rock music to
be ENTIRELY SECULAR.
</excerpt>
I can respect that you on the whole would prefer not to be
prosylitized while listening to music. I can also respect that it's
not always easy to be indifferent to music if it's lyrical content is
something that you find particularly offensive or distasteful. Hell
that's one of the things that conservative religious types will agree
with you on. But look at your music collection. I'll bet we'll find
music by acknowledged pagan and magickal types, Rastafarians,
Buddhists, a Hindi or two, same with Islam, probably someone Jewish.
I'll bet that some of that music has lyrical content that speaks of
life from their particular spiritual knothole. Just to keep this
on-topic, Jaz' lyrics are often spiritual in nature. I'd be willing to
bet that you wouldn't automatically write-off all those artists just
because they happen to share a bit about their beliefs in their music.
If someone comes to you and says "this is a great a band, they've got
a unique sound, they've got really good songs and they're Xian". Do
you automatically say to yourself (or out loud), "Xian? No thanks, I
already know it sucks" or "They could be the band of the decade and I
still wouldn't own their records"? If your response is similar, but
you wouldn't have that same response to the same description with the
word Buddhist or Hindi inserted instead, then I'd say that yes you are
prejudiced against Xians on that level and perhaps others as well. BTW
just to show that I know you're not as bad as all that I'll bet you do
have at least one release by an acknowledged Xian. Fer instance alot
of people will have a Moby disc.
Damn, long paragraph. Sorry to ramble so.
<excerpt>I do not decry other people for their respective faiths, but
I'd rather not be subjected to music that extols the tennets of said
faith. If they want to listen to it, bully for them, but don't ask me
to enjoy it.
"And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop
thumbing your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this
with your parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're
obviously horribly scarred."
You seem to think that I'm plagued by this, when in truth, I couldn't
give less of a damn. But, clearly, you're out either to wind me up or
exact revenge for touching on a nerve of yours with something I said
earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and your sentiment, and I'd
thank you to leave my parents out of this.
</excerpt>
That part was a bit of wind up. It was supposed to be laced with
sarcasm. My apologies for my tone.
Yes you did touch a nerve, I don't like intolerance and I always find
it distasteful after seeing someone else bawled out for it. As I said,
I see it on the list often in reference to Xians while intolerance of
other religious groups would be roundly chastised. Did you see what I
said about ragheads and god-botherers?
<excerpt>Shove it up your ass, while you're at it.
</excerpt>
Look being accused of intolerance is pretty harsh. I know it's
something that most of us think we're above. And we may not see it in
ourselves. People will often say things they don't realize may be
offensive to people of groups that they may not know well. I think
you're statements were intolerant and show some prejudice. You feel
I'm blowing shit way out of proportion and that you are not at all
intolerant towards Xians. I don't think you deserve to be censured or
viewed as a mind-numbed bigot. That's not how I would describe you. I
do think you should consider what I said.
<excerpt>Merry Christmas,
</excerpt>
Same to you, seriously
<excerpt>Alex in NYC
</excerpt>
I am culturevirus
_______________________________________________
Gathering mailing list
Gathering@misera.net
http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
</excerpt>
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