[kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?

Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:51:41 +0200

I'm far from being an atheist or even an agnostic.........but, hang on
Peter, I already warned everybody else from taking you seriously, didn't I ?

From: peter.west410 <peter.west410@ntlworld.com>
To: <gathering@misera.net>
Sent: 21 Aralık 2003 Pazar 13:34
Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?

> all the letter below says " Im an atheist",You only need three words,ross
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ross O'Donoghue" <donoghue@superonline.com>
> To: <gathering@misera.net>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?
>
>
> > Just a couple of points.....
> > 1. I think we should probably leave off getting excited about Peter West
> > now, as the whole thing was obviously quite a leg-pull.. and some of us
at
> > least have twigged who was probably behind it. As usual, some are too
dull
> > to get the joke....
> > 2. AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED (thought I would try capitals, as this phrase
> is
> > obviously otherwise invisible to some eyes) the whole notion of
> 'tolerance'
> > has to do with living and letting others live, and not that much to do
> with
> > the peculiar notions of the few thought-police hanging around here who
> seem
> > inordinately concerned that we think the 'right' things. I happen to
carry
> > around a whole bag of rather unwholesome prejudices, and I frankly doubt
> if
> > there are many of us who have thoroughly exorcised these ....I despise
all
> > forms of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and rarely have much time for
> > their adherents. I also hate the falseness of the term 'Xtian' - why fly
> in
> > the face of history and obscure an intelligible term with a silly
> neologism
> > that adds nothing? Or is the 'x' a kiss for a man betrayed by one?
> > I find most queers extremely dull and irritating company, and would like
> to
> > see all the modest head-scarved women of Islam and their cloistered
> > Christian counterparts stripped naked, horsewhipped and gang-raped by
> herds
> > of goats in public. I won't even get started on the Jews....( I find
most
> > Buddhists amiable fools, and have little beef with Hindus)
> > BUT....THE POINT IS......FREEDOM &TOLERANCE ( on my terms, of course)
are
> > the ONLY social principles worth having, and they encompass all others.
I
> > would be the first to take up arms and leap into the trenches in defence
> of
> > the rights of any of the above-mentioned  pains-in-the-fecking-arse to
> > continue to add to my existential discomfort. This doesn't actually
> require
> > that I like any of them. (Jacques Chirac should be shot).
> > So, now, take it easy : we're not the same.
> > Ye have been warned!
> > Ross.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: culture.virus <culturevirus@mindspring.com>
> > To: <vassifer@earthlink.net>
> > Cc: <gathering@misera.net>
> > Sent: 20 Aralık 2003 Cumartesi 21:53
> > Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At 08:42 PM 12/19/03, Alex wrote:
> > >
> > > >Okay, here we go....
> > > >
> > > >"Alex, do you not see your own hypocrisy?"
> > > >
> > > >No, but I *DO* see a big middle finger pointed right at YOU!
> > >
> > > I thought you might not.
> > >
> > >
> > > >"You and many others on the Gathering have blasted Peter for his
> > statements
> > > >about the 'sword of Islam' and then you turn around and paint all
Xian
> > > >musician's art as moot simply
> > > >because of their religious beliefs?"
> > > >
> > > >You may notice, I wrote: "1. They're Christians, which renders their
> > music
> > > >instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." There is a *HUGE*
difference
> > > >between
> > > >decrying an entire faith as zombified zealots sworn to the abject
> > destruction
> > > >of all non-believers and expressing the opinion that "Christian Rock"
> > > >sucks so
> > > >bad that it's not even worth discussing...once again, AS FAR AS I'M
> > CONCERNED.
> > >
> > > I agree that there is BIG difference of scale. Nor was I implying that
> you
> > > have decried Xians as a whole. That being said you have made a
> prejudicial
> > > statement when you say "They're Christians, which renders their music
> > > instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." You have prejudged all
> endeavors
> > > at music by Xians to be of such a nature as to "suck a giant bag of
> greasy
> > > dicks."
> > >
> > > >  Peter was talking about warfare, I was discussing entertainment.
Does
> > > >expressing my disdain for Evanescence's music mean that I think all
> > > >Christians are
> > > >the enemy? No, but it means I think their weak -ass attempts at rock
> suck
> > > >giant
> > > >bag of greasy dicks.
> > > >
> > > >"Bruce Cockburn is a Xian is his body of work moot?"
> > > >
> > > >I've never been a fan
> > >
> > > Nor am I a "fan" but it's obvious that his work in the
singer/songwriter
> > > subgenre of rock is of very high stature.
> > >
> > >
> > > >"What about Dylan?"
> > > >
> > > >I've *NEVER* been a fan of Bob Dylan
> > >
> > > Maybe, but that doesn't undermine the "fact" that his work is
legendary.
> > > Not to mention the fact that his Xian era works were probably among
the
> > > most musically complex of his entire career.
> > >
> > >
> > > >*What about any number of classical composers?"
> > > >
> > > >That's not Rock.
> > > >
> > > >"And what about reggae?"
> > > >
> > > >That's not Christian, and technically, that's not rock either.
> > >
> > > AFAIC all modern music owes a good deal of it's roots to the blues and
> > > therefore rock as well. Reggae is a post rock and roll genre.
> > >
> > >
> > > >"Is it all moot because of their religious beliefs?"
> > > >
> > > >I never said that. My point was that Christian Rock sucks...a
statement
> > I'll
> > > >stand behind.
> > >
> > > So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of
> > > musical value? You don't even have to hear it, it just automatically
> > sucks.
> > > Do you ever stop and wonder why right leaning people in the US accuse
> the
> > > left leaning of being elitist?
> > >
> > >
> > > >"After all a great deal of reggae is overtly religious in it's
lyrical
> > > >content."
> > > >
> > > >True, but that's reggae.
> > > >
> > > >"Does Cat Stevens automatically suck because of his allegiance to
> Allah?"
> > > >
> > > >Did I ever suggest as much?
> > >
> > > So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of
> > > musical value?
> > >
> > >
> > > >"Do Live automatically suck because of the Buddhist slant?"
> > > >
> > > >No, they automatically suck BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVE!!!!!
> > >
> > > So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of
> > > musical value?
> > >
> > >
> > > >" When are you and the other members of this list going to see that
> > you're as
> > > >prejudiced and hateful as the people you condemn?"
> > > >
> > > >Number one, I'm not PRE-JUDGING Evanescence. I've had the TREMENDOUS
> > > >MISFORTUNE of hearing their music....thus, my judgement of them is
> based
> > > >on the
> > > >evidence, not on preconceptions.
> > >
> > > No you're not prejudging Evanescence, you're prejudging all
acknowledged
> > > Xian Rock as sucking. In fact if I stripped your statement out of it's
> > > original context you stated that any music by a Xian is moot. You
don't
> > see
> > > that as being prejudicial? So as I tried to say before the list, you
> > > included, were slagging Peter for the trait of prejudice, a trait most
> of
> > > us see as a negative. IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in
> > your
> > > stance because you don't automatically despise the output of people
who
> > are
> > > of other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and
> since
> > > it would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in
fact
> > > hypocritical.
> > >
> > > Now most people, yourself included, might say that this is a minor
> issue,
> > > we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone observing this list
> > from
> > > the outside would see that we hold popular music in high esteem. We
> value
> > > it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for it's potential to
> impact
> > > popular thinking and change society as we know it. So to automatically
> > > write off an individual artists output solely because of their faith
is
> to
> > > not only limit your own listening choices, but it says something about
> how
> > > you view Xians as a whole if you are so willing to write off their
> > artistic
> > > endeavors in a media that you hold in very high esteem.
> > >
> > > >Moreover, after fourteen years of Catholic
> > > >education, I feel no qualms about speaking out about a faith I was
> raised
> > > >within.
> > >
> > > And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing
> > your
> > > nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this with your
> parents
> > > and possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously horribly
> scarred.
> > >
> > >
> > > >" BTW I'm no fan of Evanescence either."
> > > >
> > > >How nice for you.
> > > >
> > > >Alex in NYC
> > > >reply to home e-mail: vassifer@earthlink.net
> > >
> > > I am culturevirus
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
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