From indies@igda.org Mon Feb 2 18:47:32 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Jensen, Paul)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:47:32 -0600
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Message-ID: <98CF932BEBCAC244B2299BA4759F01160A283B@CANON>
Wow, this sounds great, now I know I'm in the right place. In addition to
some of the original content proposed, I wouldn't mind see some book (or
other medium) recommendations as the quality varies considerably. I guess
hot topics to me would also include:
- something on legal issues to be aware of
- a guide on existing specification models (what they are how to use them)
Might even think about creating an indie network for tech writiers,
programmers, artists and composers
Just my $0.02 and you get what you pay for.
-----------------------------------
Paul Jensen
pjensen@atla.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hook [mailto:hook_l@pyrogon.com]
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 8:19 PM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
> Moving forward, the community should think about some
> outcomes/goals they like to see come out of the SIG.
>From my point of view, I really want it to accomplish the following:
act as a clearing house and focal point for developers interested in
developing and distributing their games independently.
It's really that simple. A central resource that answers questions
like:
- it's just me, where do I get get art and music?
- I can't write all this by myself, where can I get help?
- how do I sell stuff on my Web site?
- I need someone to help me with my Web site design
- how much should I sell my game for?
- what type of copy protection should I use?
- someone wants to sell my game, what should I do?
- what are 'affiliates'?
Hmmm, I could probably write a couple articles on the above, but then
again, I end up monopolizing the site, and it goes IGDA SIG to IGDA
Hook's Soap Box =)
Anyway, to answer your question, that's basically what I'd like to see
happening -- the IGDA SIG becomes the default place to go when you
don't know what you're doing =)
I'd also like it to stay mostly non-technical, since there are a ton
of other resources out there that provide technical references
(flipcode, gamedev.net, etc.).
Brian
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http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Mon Feb 2 20:02:20 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Bounty Hunter)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:02:20 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <98CF932BEBCAC244B2299BA4759F01160A283B@CANON>
References: <98CF932BEBCAC244B2299BA4759F01160A283B@CANON>
Message-ID: <1075752139.5604.1.camel@prospero.ehtsc.co.cu>
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El lun, 02-02-2004 a las 13:47, Jensen, Paul escribió:
> Might even think about creating an indie network for tech writiers,
> programmers, artists and composers
Thats an interesting idea.
Ollen Roy, linarian bounty hunter (level 10). Never use Windows for a
Unix work.
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El lun, 02-02-2004 a las 13:47, Jensen, Paul escribió:
Might even think about creating an indie network for tech writiers,
programmers, artists and composers
Thats an interesting idea.
Ollen Roy, linarian bounty hunter (level 10). Never use Windows for a Unix work.
--=-YIy6HOYlfelISo50+fIT--
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From indies@igda.org Mon Feb 2 20:25:08 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:25:08 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <98CF932BEBCAC244B2299BA4759F01160A283B@CANON>
Message-ID: <20042215258.705630@GATEWAY>
> Might even think about creating an indie network for tech writiers,
> programmers, artists and composers
That's kinda/sorta what we're trying to do =3D)
Brian
From indies@igda.org Mon Feb 2 20:35:37 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Jensen, Paul)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:35:37 -0600
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Message-ID: <98CF932BEBCAC244B2299BA4759F01160A283D@CANON>
My apologies if I appear obtuse, it is not my intention. However, are you
referring to the SIG specifically as the network? If so my general, and
perhaps erroneous, impression was that the SIG was more focused on the
production management aspect. The professionals in the list I mentioned may
not actively seek out such a SIG.
-----------------------------------
Paul Jensen
pjensen@atla.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hook [mailto:hook_l@pyrogon.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:25 PM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: RE: [IGDA_indies] next steps
> Might even think about creating an indie network for tech writiers,
> programmers, artists and composers
That's kinda/sorta what we're trying to do =)
Brian
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org
http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 14:31:42 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Olivier Lejade)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:31:42 +0100
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <020801c3e7ef$2cae3440$c196c618@stlawrence>
References: <020801c3e7ef$2cae3440$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <401FB0CE.2050803@mekensleep.com>
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>[SNIP! plenty of interesting ideas...]
>* Is there some software we can develop that might be helpful (registration
>systems, customer management/support, PR, etc.)
>
>
Hmm, maybe before coding anything we should have a look to see if
there's anything out there that could do the trick.
After all, there's plenty of good Free Software available :
http://www.bestpractical.com/
RT is an excellent Request Tracker for example.
And there's plenty CRM software available:
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=CRM§ion=projects&x=0&y=0
Same goes for ERP:
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=ERP§ion=projects&x=0&y=0
I especially recommand Dolibarr for French developpers. ;)
http://www.dolibarr.com/
O.
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 14:54:31 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:54:31 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <401FB0CE.2050803@mekensleep.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3ea65$a2f99d10$c196c618@stlawrence>
Are any of these able to integrate into the installer process of the game
itself?
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Olivier Lejade
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:32 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>[SNIP! plenty of interesting ideas...]
>* Is there some software we can develop that might be helpful
>(registration systems, customer management/support, PR, etc.)
>
>
Hmm, maybe before coding anything we should have a look to see if
there's anything out there that could do the trick.
After all, there's plenty of good Free Software available :
http://www.bestpractical.com/
RT is an excellent Request Tracker for example.
And there's plenty CRM software available:
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=CRM§ion=projects&x=0&y=0
Same goes for ERP:
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=ERP§ion=projects&x=0&y=0
I especially recommand Dolibarr for French developpers. ;)
http://www.dolibarr.com/
O.
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 14:59:20 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Olivier Lejade)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:59:20 +0100
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <000801c3ea65$a2f99d10$c196c618@stlawrence>
References: <000801c3ea65$a2f99d10$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <401FB748.9020305@mekensleep.com>
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>Are any of these able to integrate into the installer process of the game
>itself?
>
Hmm could you elaborate a bit?
I'm not sure i understand what you want to do.
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 15:15:43 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:15:43 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <401FB748.9020305@mekensleep.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c3ea68$9850db00$c196c618@stlawrence>
I don't need to do anything we've already done it. =20
In terms of CRM I would want a system that not only handles CRM from dbs =
I
supply it but I'd want my software installer to be able to register =
people
and pipe the info into the CRM directly for use. =20
When we published Virtual U 2.0 we developed a script using Wise =
Installer
that asks you a series of optional registration questions. The data =
with
the users permission is piped to our SQL Server which collects it and =
lets
us edit it, export it, delete bogus records, do reports, etc. =20
As I said in the previous email I'm willing to share the system in an =
effort
to build it out more so others can use it. Having the user register =
during
installation results in a much higher registration rate so far as I can
tell. When we do covermounts and other things we rewrite the script to =
code
it to those items, etc. which further helps us track things.
So while I agree that before building a CRM system we should look at =
what's
available I'm betting no CRM system is tied directly into a software
registration system other then traditional import/export features.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Olivier Lejade
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:59 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>Are any of these able to integrate into the installer process of the=20
>game itself?
>
Hmm could you elaborate a bit?
I'm not sure i understand what you want to do.
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 15:29:58 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Olivier Lejade)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:29:58 +0100
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <001b01c3ea68$9850db00$c196c618@stlawrence>
References: <001b01c3ea68$9850db00$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <401FBE76.1010001@mekensleep.com>
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>As I said in the previous email I'm willing to share the system in an effort
>to build it out more so others can use it.
>
Have you thought of the license under which you'd want to release your
system?
>So while I agree that before building a CRM system we should look at what's
>available I'm betting no CRM system is tied directly into a software
>registration system other then traditional import/export features.
>
>
And you're probably right.
But it's also probably less work to closely tie one of the existing Free
Software CRM in your system than to develop a new one from scratch.
Best,
O.
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 15:55:11 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:55:11 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <401FBE76.1010001@mekensleep.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c3ea6e$1b0bdbd0$c196c618@stlawrence>
I'd agree there. Our system is pretty barebones but it does an adquate job.
Allowing it to may autoexport into one of the CRMs would be a next logical
course of action if I felt I needed it.
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Olivier Lejade
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:30 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>As I said in the previous email I'm willing to share the system in an
>effort to build it out more so others can use it.
>
Have you thought of the license under which you'd want to release your
system?
>So while I agree that before building a CRM system we should look at
>what's available I'm betting no CRM system is tied directly into a
>software registration system other then traditional import/export
>features.
>
>
And you're probably right.
But it's also probably less work to closely tie one of the existing Free
Software CRM in your system than to develop a new one from scratch.
Best,
O.
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 15:52:08 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:52:08 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <020801c3e7ef$2cae3440$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <20042310528.100272@GATEWAY>
Ben,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the cynical side of me feels that a
lot of what you're suggesting just won't happen simply because of the
amount of resources necessary to pursue them. Custom software, PR
people, etc. etc. cost a lot of money and time, which few indies have
to spare.
> * Maybe we can invent a simple way to lower the cost of advertising
> in some magazines by creating a simple way for multiple developers
> to buy a single page?
My argument would be that indies shouldn't be in magazines, they
should be using much lower cost avenues for marketing and advertising
(like Web sites).
> * Perhaps we should create a "buy idependent" branding campaign -
> sort of like "made in the USA" type thing to raise awareness of
> idependent developers.
This positions indies as "vs. mainstream", and I'm not sure trying to
emphasize a competitive point of view is really what we should be
doing. Indies are an _alternative_ to the mainstream, not a
competitor.
That said, a "Member of IGDA Indie SIG" logo might not be bad for
people to put on Web sites so that awareness of the SIG itself is
raised, which I think benefits the whole industry.
> * We should look for ways to get every tool company in existence to
> have a low-cost option to their toolsets for qualified independent
> developers.
It's not worth their time or effort. The reward is minimal for them.
That said, a lot of them offer downloads/reduced feature set versions
of their tools for personal use and/or for mod development.
>* Should we advocate that companies provide a means for
> people to charge for their mods and total conversions if they want
> to do that?
Very few companies are willing to let individuals make money off of
derivative works without compensating them and/or signing away a lot
of rights. I don't see this changing any time soon, simply because
there's no compelling reason for this to change.
> * Can a group of idependents ban together to fund a part time PR
> person who could work to get the general independent game scene
> more mainstream media coverage?
Probably not.
> What I think might be a good model to observe are some of the
> family-farming cooperatives and other artisan cooperatives that
> operate throughout the world.
It's called "open source" =3D)
The biggest thing I think indies can help each other with is
information and advice. That makes the biggest difference by far.
Brian
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 16:27:16 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:27:16 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <20042310528.100272@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <000701c3ea72$96e35cc0$c196c618@stlawrence>
Brian,
I think your points are fine. I definitely suggested things that may be =
out
of reach.
In general the purpose of my post was to explore and instigate people to =
see
if there are items other than information sharing that can be done by =
the
SIG. Information sharing I agree is the #1 piece of help but grassroots
actions tend to need to graduate beyond that to actionable elements if =
they
want to eventually continue their progress.
That said, a "Member of IGDA Indie SIG" logo might not be bad for=20
people to put on Web sites so that awareness of the SIG itself is=20
raised, which I think benefits the whole industry.
I think Member of IGDA Indie SIG is a bit obtuse to some people other =
than
other developers. I'd say developing some sort of official like "Indie =
Game
Developer" logo might be better. It should be a consumer branded idea =
to be
the most effective. It might even link back to a simple awareness Web =
site
on the indie games scene and provide links to other developers, etc.
> What I think might be a good model to observe are some of the=20
> family-farming cooperatives and other artisan cooperatives that=20
> operate throughout the world.
It's called "open source" =3D)
While I agree some open source models are useful my point in =
highlighting
farm cooperatives and artisan cooperatives is that they tend to band
together more to improve their distribution, cost of goods, marketing, =
and
customer sales.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:52 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: RE: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Ben,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the cynical side of me feels that a=20
lot of what you're suggesting just won't happen simply because of the=20
amount of resources necessary to pursue them. Custom software, PR=20
people, etc. etc. cost a lot of money and time, which few indies have=20
to spare.
> * Maybe we can invent a simple way to lower the cost of advertising in =
> some magazines by creating a simple way for multiple developers to buy =
> a single page?
My argument would be that indies shouldn't be in magazines, they=20
should be using much lower cost avenues for marketing and advertising=20
(like Web sites).
> * Perhaps we should create a "buy idependent" branding campaign - sort =
> of like "made in the USA" type thing to raise awareness of idependent=20
> developers.
This positions indies as "vs. mainstream", and I'm not sure trying to=20
emphasize a competitive point of view is really what we should be=20
doing. Indies are an _alternative_ to the mainstream, not a=20
competitor.
That said, a "Member of IGDA Indie SIG" logo might not be bad for=20
people to put on Web sites so that awareness of the SIG itself is=20
raised, which I think benefits the whole industry.
> * We should look for ways to get every tool company in existence to=20
> have a low-cost option to their toolsets for qualified independent=20
> developers.
It's not worth their time or effort. The reward is minimal for them. =20
That said, a lot of them offer downloads/reduced feature set versions=20
of their tools for personal use and/or for mod development.
>* Should we advocate that companies provide a means for
> people to charge for their mods and total conversions if they want to =
>do that?
Very few companies are willing to let individuals make money off of=20
derivative works without compensating them and/or signing away a lot=20
of rights. I don't see this changing any time soon, simply because=20
there's no compelling reason for this to change.
> * Can a group of idependents ban together to fund a part time PR=20
> person who could work to get the general independent game scene more=20
> mainstream media coverage?
Probably not.
> What I think might be a good model to observe are some of the=20
> family-farming cooperatives and other artisan cooperatives that=20
> operate throughout the world.
It's called "open source" =3D)
The biggest thing I think indies can help each other with is=20
information and advice. That makes the biggest difference by far.
Brian
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 16:35:49 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ted Southard)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:35:49 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
References: <20042310528.100272@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <008301c3ea73$c85fdc50$6500a8c0@SUPER6>
Hi,
This is my first post on here, so be gentle ;) I've been reading with
interest this list the past week, and I'm glad it's alive and kicking again.
I just wanted to share an idea with everyone on the guerilla PR front:
One thing I've been thinking of doing was printing up small promotional
flyers to put in bars or clubs that have those "flyer racks" or whatever you
call them. It's extremely low-cost(paper and printer ink), and low-risk. It
could also be low-yield, but for the low-cost/low-risk factors, any yield is
good yield ;) The places where they would be accepted are generally
frequented by the young adults that would be interested in games.
Ted Southard
DigitalFlux Entertainment, LLC
Ted@DigitalFlux.com
http://www.DigitalFlux.com
---
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 16:40:23 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:40:23 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <000701c3ea72$96e35cc0$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <200423114023.108488@GATEWAY>
> I think Member of IGDA Indie SIG is a bit obtuse to some people
> other than other developers.
Developers are whom I'd like to target with that though.
> I'd say developing some sort of
> official like "Indie Game Developer" logo might be better. It
> should be a consumer branded idea to be the most effective.
Appealing to consumers right now would be largely ineffective, since
by and large consumers don't care. The "seal" would not be a sign of
quality assurance testing or anything else concrete for the them.
With the nascent state of the industry we should be targeting
developers so that they can all assist and help each other -- that is
the real value of the Indie SIG, and I think letting developers know
about Indie SIG will reap far more tangible rewards in the near term
than a consumer branded logo.
> While I agree some open source models are useful my point in
> highlighting farm cooperatives and artisan cooperatives is that
> they tend to band together more to improve their distribution, cost
> of goods, marketing, and customer sales.
I agree with the analogy, however I don't believe that COGs and
distribution are really the problem right now for most indies that are
selling downloadable software. Marketing is an issue because a
handful of gateways control 95% of the eyeballs out there but I'm not
sure what a bunch of indies can really do to address that.
Brian
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 16:54:01 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:54:01 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <008301c3ea73$c85fdc50$6500a8c0@SUPER6>
Message-ID: <001d01c3ea76$537b5ce0$c196c618@stlawrence>
If it's a free flyer rack or a bulletin board which some resturants and
other places have it probably couldn't hurt although I'd wonder about =
the
work reward ratio. However, if what you're talking about are postcard =
racks
the bars have these are run by marketing companies that provide these =
and
you must purchase them or you'll be cleaned out.=20
I did some research on these for an article on game related collectibles
because people actually collect them and a number of game companies have
used them. You can find resellers too. One of the biggest is Ralph's =
Rack
Cards which is on the Web at =
http://members.aol.com/rackcardking/index.htm
The two biggest companies are Go Card (www.gocard.com) and Max Racks
(www.maxracks.com) others include Hotstamps, Brandaid, Eyecards and
Supercard. =20
The rates are pretty prohibative for anyone with anemic budgets. The =
lowest
price is $1600 and it goes way up to $10,000 and more.
A variation of your idea that can be cheaper are stickers to hand out to
people at clubs or bars, or friends, etc. - or to sticker somewhere
appropriate. Just keep a small bunch with you wherever you go. A =
friend of
ours used to run a extreme sport clothing company and even today I still
find stickers for their brand everywhere I go. It's funny I always know
where Bobby has been because I'll see his companies stick in a bathroom =
bar
in a ski-bar, or in some big city on a wall of posters. =20
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of =
Ted
Southard
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:36 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Hi,
This is my first post on here, so be gentle ;) I've been reading with
interest this list the past week, and I'm glad it's alive and kicking =
again.
I just wanted to share an idea with everyone on the guerilla PR front:
One thing I've been thinking of doing was printing up small promotional
flyers to put in bars or clubs that have those "flyer racks" or whatever =
you
call them. It's extremely low-cost(paper and printer ink), and low-risk. =
It
could also be low-yield, but for the low-cost/low-risk factors, any =
yield is
good yield ;) The places where they would be accepted are generally
frequented by the young adults that would be interested in games.
Ted Southard
DigitalFlux Entertainment, LLC
Ted@DigitalFlux.com
http://www.DigitalFlux.com
---
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 16:58:24 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:58:24 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <200423114023.108488@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <002201c3ea76$f0116c20$c196c618@stlawrence>
I think to target other developers there are two other and perhaps better
things that can be done.
One is for everyone here to agree to send an invite letter to 5-10 other
indies they know of. I can certainly send out 5-10 emails in my address
book telling people the sig exists and they'd be welcome
lurkers/participants.
The second would be for people to volunteer to find the names of 10 other
developers they don't know of and we'll send them emails too. To avoid
stomping on each other we could just divide up the alphabet. I'd find
people whose companies began with A-C, someone else D-F.
The best way to build up listservs are two things - getting the listserv
plugged on the right site, or sending out personal invites.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:40 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: RE: [IGDA_indies] next steps
> I think Member of IGDA Indie SIG is a bit obtuse to some people other
> than other developers.
Developers are whom I'd like to target with that though.
> I'd say developing some sort of
> official like "Indie Game Developer" logo might be better. It should
> be a consumer branded idea to be the most effective.
Appealing to consumers right now would be largely ineffective, since
by and large consumers don't care. The "seal" would not be a sign of
quality assurance testing or anything else concrete for the them.
With the nascent state of the industry we should be targeting
developers so that they can all assist and help each other -- that is
the real value of the Indie SIG, and I think letting developers know
about Indie SIG will reap far more tangible rewards in the near term
than a consumer branded logo.
> While I agree some open source models are useful my point in
> highlighting farm cooperatives and artisan cooperatives is that they
> tend to band together more to improve their distribution, cost of
> goods, marketing, and customer sales.
I agree with the analogy, however I don't believe that COGs and
distribution are really the problem right now for most indies that are
selling downloadable software. Marketing is an issue because a
handful of gateways control 95% of the eyeballs out there but I'm not
sure what a bunch of indies can really do to address that.
Brian
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Tue Feb 3 17:01:20 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:01:20 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
In-Reply-To: <200423114023.108488@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <002401c3ea77$5a24e100$c196c618@stlawrence>
FYI - this just blasted out on the Games Research Network...
-----Original Message-----
From: Games Research Network [mailto:GAMESNETWORK@uta.fi] On Behalf Of =
Jason
Rutter
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:36 AM
To: GAMESNETWORK@uta.fi
Subject: [GAMESNETWORK] 3D mobile gaming competition : $50,000 Prize
Discreet and Partners Announce the First International 3D Mobile Gaming
Competition to Drive 3D Mobile Game Development Together with Nokia, =
Orange,
Intel, IBM, In-Fusio, Criterion, Fathammer, NVIDIA, Kaolink and =
Ideaworks3D,
Discreet Kicks off Competition at IMAGINA 2004, Feb 2-5, Monaco
IMAGINA, February 3, 2004 - Discreet, a division of Autodesk, Inc, and
mobile games industry partners today announced the launch of the first
international 3D mobile gaming competition. With prizes totalling a =
value of
more than US $50,000, the contest represents a unique opportunity for
independent mobile gaming artists or developers, traditional PC/Console =
game
developers and 3D freelance artists to realise their creative concepts =
for
mobile games. It also offers an opportunity for existing mobile game
developers to showcase their mobile game titles that are either in
development or already available.
This international competition is supported by some of the most =
significant
mobile gaming players in their respective fields:
Discreet, a world leader in 3D content creation, including 2.5D and 3D
Mobile Games and developer of 3ds maxR and character studioR =
professional
animation software;
Nokia, the world leader in mobile communications;
Orange, one of the world's largest mobile communications operators, =
widely
recognised as an innovator, driving new mobile applications by =
supporting
world-wide 3rd party developers;
In-fusio, a leading mobile games service provider;
Fathammer, a world-leading provider of game development tools for =
advanced
mobile gaming
IBM, a world-leading digital content creation solution for media and
entertainment;
Intel, a world-wide leader in technology for content creation;
NVIDIA, the market-leading provider of professional graphics, as well as
innovative products for the handheld and mobile market;
Criterion, a leading provider of middleware for the games industry; and
Hybrid, a leading provider of embedded graphics middleware for the =
mobile
market.
Ideaworks3D and Kaolink, 2 fast-growing mobile game development service
providers.
Targeting 3D as well as 2.5D mobile gaming, the contest is divided into =
two
main categories, Downloadable and Non-Downloadable mobile games and will
focus on exploiting the latest, cutting-edge technologies and gaming
hardware handsets. These range from current phones and the Nokia N-Gage
platform, to high-end next-generation and Java phones.
The 3D Mobile Gaming contest, launched at the IMAGINA 2004 tradeshow, =
will
also be promoted at major international industry events including 3GSM =
in
Cannes, France (February 23-26) and GDC 2004, in San Jose, California =
(March
22-26), as well as during the Discreet European Games Tour that will run
until the end of July 2004. The winners will be announced this summer.
The deadline for entries is 31st March.
Dependent on specific needs, the winners will receive prizes that will
assist in the co-development and co-production of their project. In
addition, the developers of the best concept will receive tool kits to =
aid
the development of their project.
"This competition is a huge opportunity for talented mobile games =
developers
and artists to showcase their skills to the world, and can give a major
boost to their future success. Developers can also benefit in developing =
and
promoting their businesses from the industry-related prizes from =
Discreet
and its technology partners," says Martin Vann, vice president, =
worldwide
Sales and Marketing for Discreet. "With this contest, Discreet clearly
commits itself to this emerging market and reaffirms its position as =
leader
in the creation of cutting-edge 3D content," added Vann.
Game developers and freelancers across Europe and World are invited to
register and get more information on the competition at
www.3dmobilegamingcontest.com
About 3ds max
Discreet 3ds max software has the largest installed base in the 3D =
industry
and is the preferred 3D software in the core production environment for =
UBI
Soft, Rockstar Games, Electronic Arts, HOK, Ellerbe Becket, Blur =
Studios,
Frantic Films, Digital Dimensions-along with other leading design and
entertainment firms.
>From the latest radical Burton snowboard designs and the first 3D=20
>design
visualisation software used by the Frank Lloyd WrightR TaliesinR West =
School
of Architecture-to the enthralling visual effects scenes found in The =
Last
Samurai and interactive twists and turns found in the best-selling game
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City or the popular Prince of Persia:The Sands of
Time for Microsoft Xbox-3ds max continues its widespread popularity and
leadership as the preferred 3D production solution of top artists and
designers worldwide.
About Discreet
Discreet empowers media professionals to realize the visual experience =
and
transform their vision into reality. Discreet's award-winning solutions =
are
designed for digital media creation, management and delivery-across all
disciplines from film and television visual effects, colour grading and
editing to animation, game development, and design visualisation. =
Discreet
is based in Montreal, Quebec and is a division of Autodesk, Inc, the =
world's
leading design and digital media creation, management, and distribution
company. www.discreet.com.
About Orange
Orange and wirefree are trademarks of Orange PCS. The Orange group is =
one of
the world's largest mobile communications companies, with operations in =
19
countries across Europe and beyond. It provides a broad range of =
personal
communications services, including Orange GSM1800 services and other =
digital
cellular telephone services. The Orange brand operates in the UK, =
France,
Switzerland, Romania, Denmark, Slovakia, Luxembourg, Thailand, the Ivory
Coast, the Dominican Republic, Cameroon, the Netherlands, Botswana and
Madagascar. The Orange group also has controlled operations in Belgium
(Mobistar). The Orange group has a joint controlling interest in Egypt
(MobiNil) and minority interests in Portugal (Optimus), Austria (One), =
and
Mumbai/India (BPL Mobile). As at the end of September 2003, Orange was =
the
largest mobile operator in both the UK with 13 million active customers, =
and
France with over 19 million registered customers. As at the end of =
September
2003, Orange controlled companies had 45.6 million customers worldwide.
Further information about Orange can be found on the Orange website at
www.orange.com.
Ideaworks3D
Ideaworks3D is the world's leading developer of content and technology =
for
connected mobile gaming on smartphone devices. The company has an
unparalleled track record of innovation and market leadership in this =
field,
recently supplying Nokia with both the technology and content behind the
launch of the N-Gage ArenaTM, the world's first globally available,
multiplayer wireless gaming service. Visit: www.mobilegames.com.
###
Discreet is a division of Autodesk, Inc. Discreet, 3ds max and character
studio are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Autodesk, Inc.
/Autodesk Canada Inc. in the USA and/or other countries. All other brand
names, product names, or trademarks belong to their respective holders.
CCopyright 2004, Autodesk, Inc. All rights reserved.
Contact:
Stewart-Muir Communications
Paul Nolan / Janine Maxwell
020 8892 9207
discreet@stewartmuir.com
--
Dr Jason Rutter
Mobile Entertainment: User Centred Perspectives
25th-27th March 2004
www.mobile-ent.org
ESRC DigiPlay Seminar series www.cric.ac.uk/cric/digi/digisems.htm
ESRC Centre for Research on Innovation and Competition (CRIC), The
University of Manchester, Harold Hankins Building, Booth Street West,
Manchester, M13 9QH. UK
PH: +44 (0) 161 275 6859 Fax: +44 (0) 161 275 7361
http://www.cric.ac.uk/cric/Jason_Rutter
From indies@igda.org Wed Feb 4 03:20:40 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ted Southard)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:20:40 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] next steps
References: <001d01c3ea76$537b5ce0$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <01ab01c3eacd$de3079e0$6500a8c0@SUPER6>
The work reward ratio is bound to be low, but as an indie we're already
talking low numbers, so dropping 50 at someplace that you're at isn't too
big of a deal, especially when considering trying to generate some kind of
buzz.
Good info with the distribution of those flyer racks, and even though I
meant the free kind, it's nice to have for future reference.
Ted Southard
DigitalFlux Entertainment, LLC
Ted@DigitalFlux.com
http://www.DigitalFlux.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Sawyer"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: [IGDA_indies] next steps
If it's a free flyer rack or a bulletin board which some resturants and
other places have it probably couldn't hurt although I'd wonder about the
work reward ratio. However, if what you're talking about are postcard racks
the bars have these are run by marketing companies that provide these and
you must purchase them or you'll be cleaned out.
I did some research on these for an article on game related collectibles
because people actually collect them and a number of game companies have
used them. You can find resellers too. One of the biggest is Ralph's Rack
Cards which is on the Web at http://members.aol.com/rackcardking/index.htm
The two biggest companies are Go Card (www.gocard.com) and Max Racks
(www.maxracks.com) others include Hotstamps, Brandaid, Eyecards and
Supercard.
The rates are pretty prohibative for anyone with anemic budgets. The lowest
price is $1600 and it goes way up to $10,000 and more.
A variation of your idea that can be cheaper are stickers to hand out to
people at clubs or bars, or friends, etc. - or to sticker somewhere
appropriate. Just keep a small bunch with you wherever you go. A friend of
ours used to run a extreme sport clothing company and even today I still
find stickers for their brand everywhere I go. It's funny I always know
where Bobby has been because I'll see his companies stick in a bathroom bar
in a ski-bar, or in some big city on a wall of posters.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of Ted
Southard
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:36 AM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] next steps
Hi,
This is my first post on here, so be gentle ;) I've been reading with
interest this list the past week, and I'm glad it's alive and kicking again.
I just wanted to share an idea with everyone on the guerilla PR front:
One thing I've been thinking of doing was printing up small promotional
flyers to put in bars or clubs that have those "flyer racks" or whatever you
call them. It's extremely low-cost(paper and printer ink), and low-risk. It
could also be low-yield, but for the low-cost/low-risk factors, any yield is
good yield ;) The places where they would be accepted are generally
frequented by the young adults that would be interested in games.
Ted Southard
DigitalFlux Entertainment, LLC
Ted@DigitalFlux.com
http://www.DigitalFlux.com
---
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org
http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
---
---
From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 22:49:09 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:49:09 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
Message-ID:
I've read the recent archives. There's not much to look at right now,
but assuming this list grows and becomes a useful resource for indies,
the archiving infrastructure is inadequate. It needs to be searchable.
Also, traversible without a month-by-month segmentation architecture.
Also, easy to jump back up to a toplevel index. Right now one does a
2-step shuffle of going back to the main mailing list page, then down to
the archive again. Realize that when people read archives, often they
read / skim many articles in a row and it's a PITA to click the browser
back button dozens of times. I believe that to the degree an archive
has many unnecessary futz factors, people won't use it in the real
world.
But the most important issue is searching. How difficult is it to add
this capability?
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004
From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 23:01:01 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:01:01 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] IGDA Indie
Message-ID:
I am not excited about marketing / branding campaigns to promote this
SIG. Personally I think we have to provide harder hitting, immediate
tangible value to indie developers of various flavors. Not really worth
marketing stuff when we don't even have a product to market.
But if people *do* want to pursue logos / little stickers / whatever, if
that's where your volunteer energies lie and you cannot be persuaded to
other endeavors, I humbly submit that "IGDA Indie" is a better monniker
than what has been previously recommended. It's short, sweet, Keep It
Simple Stupid.
Compare "Intel Inside."
No idea how you'd like to represent this visually.
I caution: having attempted to get the Python crowd to cough up real
marketing materials and a real logo, not the gross crap they currently
have on www.python.org, coming up with good brand identities and logos
consumes lotsa lotsa hours. There's a lot involved in being a
professional graphics designer, let alone an armchair one. It can take
a month of work for a bunch of reasonably cooperative people to come up
with a high quality logo, assuming you actually have a real graphic
designer in your midst. That's a best case.
Fortunately, I doubt anyone here has a problem with approving and
shipping a logo, once something of reasonable quality is created. The
Python Software Foundation, in contrast, are a bunch of painful Dilberts
to work with. Consequently, some parties won't be working with them
anymore.
I guess I'd acutally plaster "IGDA Indie" stickers various places, so
maybe I'm not as much of a crumudgeon about the idea as I thought. Just
really bitter because of the good efforts a lot of people put into
Python marketing, only to be summarily ignored by techies who can't /
won't understand marketing and don't want to ship.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004
From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 23:00:20 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:00:20 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <20042518020.426493@GATEWAY>
> But the most important issue is searching. How difficult is it to
> add this capability?
Given that this is a common complaint with most mailman-based list
servers, it's probably not trivial (cf. the SourceForge pretty much
non-stop suckage with all things to do with mailing lists -- they use
MailMan).
If you're volunteering...=3D)
Brian
From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 23:17:47 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:17:47 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
In-Reply-To: <20042518020.426493@GATEWAY>
Message-ID:
Brian Hook wrote:
>
> > But the most important issue is searching. How difficult is it to
> > add this capability?
>
> Given that this is a common complaint with most mailman-based list
> servers, it's probably not trivial (cf. the SourceForge pretty much
> non-stop suckage with all things to do with mailing lists -- they use
> MailMan).
>
> If you're volunteering...=)
At this time, no I am not. But we should decide the difficulty of
having searchability, because we do have to tackle it eventually. Right
now, we can hedge bets that this forum doesn't live long enough to be
worth searching. I'm not thinking cynically, just practically. It's
still a small enough archive to read linearly, even with the totally
clunky interface.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004
From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 23:24:45 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:24:45 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> But we should decide the difficulty of
> having searchability, because we do have to tackle it
> eventually.
Can mailing list archives somehow be plugged into the general IGDA
search facility? That seems debateable. I got:
SEARCH RESULTS for [IGDA_Indies]
Sorry, no matches were found containing [IGDA_Indies]. Atomz is not set
to crawl the IGDA Forums (which supports its own search function) or the
chapter sub-sites. You can refer to the site map for a hierarchical
layout of the site. Feel free to contact us for assistance.
I don't know if this is a matter of choice or technical constraint.
Jason, can you comment?
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From indies@igda.org Thu Feb 5 23:52:25 2004
From: indies@igda.org (John Szeder)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:52:25 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Greetings and introductions
Message-ID: <4D0621248D5DDE4795D70A854340E7F1017980@speech.directhost.net>
My name is John Szeder and I used to run my own studio doing wireless =
development before starting at Digital Chocolate, working for Trip =
Hawkins as a director of development.
=20
I am interested in helping out with the indie SIG as much as I can =
despite the fact that where I am now indicates I am a shameless sell =
out.
=20
Most of the games that come out of the mainstream game industry are =
boring, and some of the best games I have played in a while have come =
from the indie community.
=20
If there is anything I can do to help foster that culture, at the same =
time learning from the people who create great games like these, I would =
be more than happy to oblige.
=20
Warm regards,
=20
John Szeder
Director of Development
Digital Chocolate, Inc
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 03:38:57 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Jason Della Rocca)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:38:57 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205223624.05935908@mail.igda.org>
>SEARCH RESULTS for [IGDA_Indies]
Searching for "indie mailing list" brings up the main SIG page. Our general
search tool cannot crawl our listserves. If the SIG page could certainly be
updated with various keywords/etc to help in that aspect.
The MailMan listserves are provided by our ISP (Pair Networks), as is. So,
there's not much we can do about it...
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jason Della Rocca
Program Director
International Game Developers Association
t: 514-426-1162
f: 514-426-1201
Montreal, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.igda.org/blogs/realitypanic/
"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 03:58:29 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:58:29 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Searchable archive
In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205223624.05935908@mail.igda.org>
Message-ID:
Jason Della Rocca
>
> The MailMan listserves are provided by our ISP (Pair
> Networks), as is. So, there's not much we can do about it...
What if we got listed by gmane.org ? Somehow, that seems to be a
typical way that clunky mailing lists end up with better searchable
archives. I don't know what their terms are. Actually, there might not
be any terms, I think one may be able to just do it.
Anyone see any issues?
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.
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From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 17:49:42 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Tron-sama [Brandii])
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:49:42 +0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
Message-ID: <20040206174942.B849A102CF3@ws3.hk5.outblaze.com>
Hello, long-time lurker here, I had a couple of suggestions:
1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is finding affordable tools and services when they have no money. I would like to see some form of "$100 & Under" listing of helpful game development/business related tools, software, etc.
Many people list cheap tools and services on places like 'gamedev.net', but in order to find them later you have to wade through news articles. It would be nice if they could simply add them to a searchable database. This would also provide the bonus of free advertising for indie game-tools devs.
2) People have been talking about spreading flyers and such as a means of advertisement – could we capitalize on this idea for the indie sig by passing out 'indie dev sig' flyers at the GDC this year?
@>-----`--------
Brandii R. Grace
--
_______________________________________________
Come to http://www.sailormoon.com the sailormoon friends & fan community where you get chat, e-mail and can even build your own homepages!
Powered by Outblaze
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:20:16 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:20:16 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <20040206174942.B849A102CF3@ws3.hk5.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
> 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is
> finding affordable tools and services when they have no money. I
> would like to see some form of "$100 & Under" listing of helpful
> game development/business related tools, software, etc.
That's a very good point. IIRC, the Web site lists a bunch of open
source tools, but that may actually only be in the article on open
source stuff.
In fact, that's a probably a good article by itself, briefly
mentioning tools like:
cvs/subversion
gimp/paintshop
blender/milkshape3d
open office
mingw/gcc/Dev-C++
Any volunteers? =3D)
> 2) People have been talking about spreading flyers and such as a
> means of advertisement =96 could we capitalize on this idea for the
> indie sig by passing out 'indie dev sig' flyers at the GDC this
> year?
Not a bad idea as well, or at least it would be nice if GDC/IGDA
cooperated to raise some awareness on the sig, but I don't know what
the policy is on that.
Brian
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:30:57 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ted Southard)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:30:57 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
References: <20040206174942.B849A102CF3@ws3.hk5.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c3ecdf$5d5e7740$6500a8c0@SUPER6>
I dunno about "$100 and under", but there's plenty of cheap tools out there
and it would be very helpful for a site to contain a listing of as many of
the free/low-cost tools out there(maybe even broken down into categories
like database, office sw, 2d sw, 3d sw, programming, etc).
Ted Southard
DigitalFlux Entertainment, LLC
Ted@DigitalFlux.com
http://www.DigitalFlux.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tron-sama [Brandii]"
To:
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:49 PM
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
> Hello, long-time lurker here, I had a couple of suggestions:
>
> 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is finding
affordable tools and services when they have no money. I would like to see
some form of "$100 & Under" listing of helpful game development/business
related tools, software, etc.
>
> Many people list cheap tools and services on places like 'gamedev.net',
but in order to find them later you have to wade through news articles. It
would be nice if they could simply add them to a searchable database. This
would also provide the bonus of free advertising for indie game-tools devs.
>
> 2) People have been talking about spreading flyers and such as a means of
advertisement - could we capitalize on this idea for the indie sig by
passing out 'indie dev sig' flyers at the GDC this year?
>
>
> @>-----`--------
> Brandii R. Grace
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Come to http://www.sailormoon.com the sailormoon friends & fan community
where you get chat, e-mail and can even build your own homepages!
>
> Powered by Outblaze
> _______________________________________________
> indies mailing list
> indies@igda.org
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
> ---
>
>
---
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:30:49 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Tom Spilman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:30:49 -0600
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <20040206174942.B849A102CF3@ws3.hk5.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3ecdf$5d718a10$6601a8c0@meanie>
> 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is
> finding affordable tools and services when they have no
> money. I would like to see some form of "$100 & Under"
> listing of helpful game development/business related tools,
> software, etc.
Speaking of, people are probably not aware of Microsoft's Action Pack.
http://members.microsoft.com/partner/salesmarketing/partnermarket/action
pack/actionpack_standard.aspx
If your looking for 10 licenses for the latest versions of WinXP,
Office, Project, Visio, and others it's hard to beat $299. The only
caveats are that the software is only for internal use ( for example you
can't run a public web server with it or resell it ) and it's a
subscription so you must renew to continue to use the licenses legally.
Still if you need a couple of these products and consider yearly upgrade
costs it can be quite a deal for some.
Tom
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:34:01 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Olivier Lejade)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:34:01 +0100
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
References: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <4023DE19.10503@mekensleep.com>
Brian Hook wrote:
> In fact, that's a probably a good article by itself, briefly
>
>mentioning tools like:
>
>cvs/subversion
>gimp/paintshop
>blender/milkshape3d
>open office
>mingw/gcc/Dev-C++
>
>Any volunteers? =)
>
>
Yes, I can volunteer on a "Free Software in game dev" article, once i'm
done with the one on the french indie scene.
Best,
O.
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:42:23 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:42:23 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <072f01c3ece0$f666d670$c196c618@stlawrence>
I'm doing some stuff for a book that will allow me to pub the stuff on
low-end tools. If people are willing to wait I'll piece something together
by around end of April.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:20 PM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
> 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is finding
> affordable tools and services when they have no money. I would like to
> see some form of "$100 & Under" listing of helpful game
> development/business related tools, software, etc.
That's a very good point. IIRC, the Web site lists a bunch of open
source tools, but that may actually only be in the article on open
source stuff.
In fact, that's a probably a good article by itself, briefly
mentioning tools like:
cvs/subversion
gimp/paintshop
blender/milkshape3d
open office
mingw/gcc/Dev-C++
Any volunteers? =)
> 2) People have been talking about spreading flyers and such as a means
> of advertisement - could we capitalize on this idea for the indie sig
> by passing out 'indie dev sig' flyers at the GDC this year?
Not a bad idea as well, or at least it would be nice if GDC/IGDA
cooperated to raise some awareness on the sig, but I don't know what
the policy is on that.
Brian
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:42:55 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:42:55 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ecdf$5d718a10$6601a8c0@meanie>
Message-ID: <073101c3ece1$08ef8ee0$c196c618@stlawrence>
Yeah the Action Pak is an AMAZING deal. Highly recommended.
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of =
Tom
Spilman
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:31 PM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: RE: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
> 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is
> finding affordable tools and services when they have no=20
> money. I would like to see some form of "$100 & Under"=20
> listing of helpful game development/business related tools,=20
> software, etc.=20
Speaking of, people are probably not aware of Microsoft's Action Pack.
http://members.microsoft.com/partner/salesmarketing/partnermarket/action
pack/actionpack_standard.aspx
If your looking for 10 licenses for the latest versions of WinXP, =
Office,
Project, Visio, and others it's hard to beat $299. The only caveats are
that the software is only for internal use ( for example you can't run a
public web server with it or resell it ) and it's a subscription so you =
must
renew to continue to use the licenses legally. Still if you need a =
couple of
these products and consider yearly upgrade costs it can be quite a deal =
for
some.
Tom
_______________________________________________
indies mailing list
indies@igda.org http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/indies
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 18:37:58 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:37:58 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4023DE19.10503@mekensleep.com>
Message-ID: <200426133758.072908@GATEWAY>
> Yes, I can volunteer on a "Free Software in game dev" article, once
> i'm done with the one on the french indie scene.
Woo-hoo! Okay, any more volunteers willing to step up to the plate?
=3D)
A series of articles I'd love to see are:
- fundamentals of Web site hosting, including hosting, downloads,
secure downloads, etc.
- fundamentals of e-commerce (using merchant partners, handling sales
directly)
- protecting your assets -- techniques to combat piracy
Brian
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 20:01:51 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Bounty Hunter)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:01:51 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
References: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <1076097709.22508.13.camel@prospero.ehtsc.co.cu>
El vie, 06-02-2004 a las 13:20, Brian Hook escribió:
> > 1) A major problem that indies often seem to struggle with is
> > finding affordable tools and services when they have no money. I
> > would like to see some form of "$100 & Under" listing of helpful
> > game development/business related tools, software, etc.
>
> That's a very good point. IIRC, the Web site lists a bunch of open
> source tools, but that may actually only be in the article on open
> source stuff.
>
> In fact, that's a probably a good article by itself, briefly
> mentioning tools like:
>
> cvs/subversion
> gimp/paintshop
> blender/milkshape3d
> open office
> mingw/gcc/Dev-C++
>
I would add these nice game engines to the list:
Ogre 3d (www.ogre3d.org), possibly the best open source 3d engine
Neoengine (neoengine.sf.net), a complete game engine (network support,
sounds, physics)
Crystal space (crystal.sf.net), another complete game engine, I think
Irrlicht (irrlicht.sf.net), 3d engine, very easy to use
All of them are licensed under LGPL or even less restrictive licenses.
Basically, you can use any of them to create a closed source, commercial
game. Also are crossplatform, and supports multiple rendering backends:
Opengl, DirectX, software; multiple file formats (BSPs, 3ds, md2/3),
user interface and filesystem abstraction (they can transparently read
compressed files).
--
Roger D. Vargas
Linux user #180787
ICQ: 117641572
"Cuando has comprendido el Camino de la Estrategia, ya no hay nada que
no puedas comprender", Miyamoto Musashi, El libro de los Cinco Anillos.
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 20:10:10 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brian Hook)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:10:10 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <1076097709.22508.13.camel@prospero.ehtsc.co.cu>
Message-ID: <200426151010.439798@GATEWAY>
> I would add these nice game engines to the list:
I'd actually split it this into at least 3 groups:
- inexpensive/open source libraries (with a LOT more subcategories)
- inexpensive/open source engines
- inexpensive/open source GUI packages
- inexpensive/open source tools (with a lot more subcategories)
Probably a decent series of articles in there if someone has the
writing bug.
Brian
From indies@igda.org Fri Feb 6 20:09:49 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Jason Della Rocca)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:09:49 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
References: <20040206174942.B849A102CF3@ws3.hk5.outblaze.com>
<200426132016.469336@GATEWAY>
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206150444.02106b00@mail.igda.org>
Regarding SIG promotion at GDC...
With 70+ chapters, a dozen committees and SIGs, and many other subgroups
and initiatives, the IGDA simply cannot put out flyers/etc, and do
marketing for each one. Rather, we work on general awareness of the IGDA as
a whole and try to point people in the direction.
That said, several of the above groups do have specific sessions to address
their needs (eg, Womens Group Gather, HR tutorial, AI SIG standards, etc,
etc). Some groups do their own stuff like hand out flyers, or create custom
t-shirts, etc.
Last year, we had a group gathering session for indie developers. This
year, when I was trying to put plans together, I didn't get much response
from anyone (not pointing fingers, but I think Brian was moving that week).
Sadly, there's no GG for indies on the schedule this year :(
Sorry.
Jason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jason Della Rocca
Program Director
International Game Developers Association
t: 514-426-1162
f: 514-426-1201
Montreal, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.igda.org/blogs/realitypanic/
"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda
From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 02:53:59 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Tron-sama [Brandii])
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:53:59 +0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] GDC indie-gathering
Message-ID: <20040207025401.869FF3F92@ws2.hk5.outblaze.com>
Jason,
Could we, as a sig, put something together some hand-outs for the GDC? Would we have to get permission from someone to do this? For that matter, who would be in charge/eligable to submit a proposal to do an indie-sig gathering at the GDC? I would assume, so far, Brian is the only eligable member to do this task. For future reference, is there some sort of pre-reqs we are going to place on people in such power positions for the indie-sig? (I.e. - position in a company, number of commercial releases, etc.)
@>-----`--------
Brandii R. Grace
- Just a gal looking for work :)
----------------
> Regarding SIG promotion at GDC...
>
> With 70+ chapters, a dozen committees and SIGs, and many other subgroups
> and initiatives, the IGDA simply cannot put out flyers/etc, and do
> marketing for each one. Rather, we work on general awareness of the IGDA as
> a whole and try to point people in the direction.
>
> That said, several of the above groups do have specific sessions to address
> their needs (eg, Womens Group Gather, HR tutorial, AI SIG standards, etc,
> etc). Some groups do their own stuff like hand out flyers, or create custom
> t-shirts, etc.
>
> Last year, we had a group gathering session for indie developers. This
> year, when I was trying to put plans together, I didn't get much response
> from anyone (not pointing fingers, but I think Brian was moving that week).
> Sadly, there's no GG for indies on the schedule this year :(
>
> Sorry.
>
> Jason
--
_______________________________________________
Come to http://www.sailormoon.com the sailormoon friends & fan community where you get chat, e-mail and can even build your own homepages!
Powered by Outblaze
From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 09:33:51 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 01:33:51 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] 3D engines
In-Reply-To: <1076097709.22508.13.camel@prospero.ehtsc.co.cu>
Message-ID:
Bounty Hunter wrote:
>
> Ogre 3d (www.ogre3d.org), possibly the best open source 3d engine
> Neoengine (neoengine.sf.net), a complete game engine (network support,
> sounds, physics)
> Crystal space (crystal.sf.net), another complete game engine, I think
> Irrlicht (irrlicht.sf.net), 3d engine, very easy to use
> All of them are licensed under LGPL or even less restrictive licenses.
Add http://nebuladevice.sourceforge.net to the pile. BSD license. =
Nebula 1 runs on DirectX and OpenGL and is commercially proven. See =
http://www.project-nomads.de/ . I'm told it has also been used in 10 =
other commercial titles, but I haven't verified that. At a glance it is =
significantly better than the other freeware engines I've looked at, no =
doubt because it's got a game company, Radon Labs, pushing a lot of the =
technology. Downside is that at this time, Nebula 2 is very much a work =
in progress. Upside is that project organization and discipline is =
excellent. Nebula 2 is heavily shader driven and currently DirectX =
centric. It'll be ported to OpenGL 2.0 when that's available, it's not =
terribly reasonable to do OpenGL shader support before then.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004
=20
From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 09:41:24 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 01:41:24 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] GDC indie-gathering
In-Reply-To: <20040207025401.869FF3F92@ws2.hk5.outblaze.com>
Message-ID:
Tron-sama [Brandii] wrote:
>
> For future reference, is there some sort of
> pre-reqs we are going to place on people in such power
> positions for the indie-sig? (I.e. - position in a company,
> number of commercial releases, etc.)
'Power' ? Dude, I'd hazard a guess that it falls to whoever's willing
to actually do the work and isn't a flake! You want the job, step right
up and Just Do It. Groups at this low level of organization don't have
the manpower and resources to worry about 'power'.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004
From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 13:11:41 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:11:41 -0500
Subject: [IGDA_indies] GDC indie-gathering
In-Reply-To: <20040207025401.869FF3F92@ws2.hk5.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <089501c3ed7b$ed57a410$c196c618@stlawrence>
Jason can correct me but what I can tell you is that as he said leaving
stuff on tables is not allowed - they send sweepers through to pick =
stuff up
so not only is frowned upon but it won't go very far. At times though =
there
is sometimes a table that is allowed but I'm not sure if that feature =
has
been kept.
What I would do is maybe we could design a simple half page flyer =
everyone
could take and print out at a their local Kinkos and take 50 of them =
with
them to GDC. Then what you do is just hand them out to people you meet =
who
might be interested. I'm not saying hand them out at random just as you
meet people have something to give them. I did this last years with the
Serious Games list and aside from my session it helped get me a dozen or
more participants. If there were ten or more people going it would be
pretty easy for each person to hand out 20-30 just from people you =
casually
meet out there, or at parties and stuff afterwards. There is also =
nothing
stopping people from an informal gathering at a local pub etc. if =
someone is
willing to declare a time and place. =20
At the very least talk things up - tell people it exists and get their =
card
if they're interested and say you'll send them an invite to the list =
when
you get back. This is where relevant roundtables are useful since =
you'll
get a chance to announce you have some info for people if they're
interested. =20
Granted these things aren't as good as an official meeting or a huge =
banner
at the front of the conference center but they'll work. It's got to be =
a
person by person effort at this point. =20
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: indies-admin@igda.org [mailto:indies-admin@igda.org] On Behalf Of
Tron-sama [Brandii]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 9:54 PM
To: indies@igda.org
Subject: Re: [IGDA_indies] GDC indie-gathering
Jason,=20
Could we, as a sig, put something together some hand-outs for the GDC? =
Would
we have to get permission from someone to do this? For that matter, who
would be in charge/eligable to submit a proposal to do an indie-sig
gathering at the GDC? I would assume, so far, Brian is the only eligable
member to do this task. For future reference, is there some sort of =
pre-reqs
we are going to place on people in such power positions for the =
indie-sig?
(I.e. - position in a company, number of commercial releases, etc.)
@>-----`--------
Brandii R. Grace
- Just a gal looking for work :)
----------------
> Regarding SIG promotion at GDC...
>=20
> With 70+ chapters, a dozen committees and SIGs, and many other=20
> subgroups
> and initiatives, the IGDA simply cannot put out flyers/etc, and do=20
> marketing for each one. Rather, we work on general awareness of the =
IGDA
as=20
> a whole and try to point people in the direction.
>=20
> That said, several of the above groups do have specific sessions to=20
> address
> their needs (eg, Womens Group Gather, HR tutorial, AI SIG standards, =
etc,=20
> etc). Some groups do their own stuff like hand out flyers, or create
custom=20
> t-shirts, etc.
>=20
> Last year, we had a group gathering session for indie developers. This
> year, when I was trying to put plans together, I didn't get much =
response=20
> from anyone (not pointing fingers, but I think Brian was moving that
week).=20
> Sadly, there's no GG for indies on the schedule this year :(
>=20
> Sorry.
>=20
> Jason
--=20
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From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 19:45:26 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Andy Smith)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:45:26 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] IGDA Indie Logo WAS GDC indie-gathering
In-Reply-To: <089501c3ed7b$ed57a410$c196c618@stlawrence>
References: <089501c3ed7b$ed57a410$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID: <40254056.6010500@anarkystic.com>
I recall hearing about some need for some kind of logo for the Indie
IGDA sig, so some quick work turned up this, let me know what you all think.
Logo: http://www.anarkystic.com/images/igda_indie.png
-Andy
From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 21:04:55 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:04:55 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] GDC indie-gathering
In-Reply-To: <089501c3ed7b$ed57a410$c196c618@stlawrence>
Message-ID:
Ben Sawyer wrote:
>
> What I would do is maybe we could design a simple half page
> flyer everyone
> could take and print out at a their local Kinkos and take 50
> of them with
> them to GDC. Then what you do is just hand them out to
> people you meet who
> might be interested. I'm not saying hand them out at random
> just as you meet people have something to give them.
At GDC 2002, Team Yellow won Leviathan precisely because we had a bold
French woman who would simply grab random people, slap a yellow sticker
on 'em, drag them over to the gameboard, and then explain how
recruitment works and what's going on. They could renege at that time I
suppose, but I don't remember anyone doing so. What guy doesn't want to
be dragged around by a French woman?
And, I was pretty aggressive about recruitment in my own way as well.
Aggressive recruitment + correct opening strategy is how we won the
game. Oh, and that *dollar* I spent at the right moment, eh Jason? :-)
Don't be a sheep about promotion. If you want to promote, hand out tons
of flyers indiscriminately. Don't spend 5 minutes of your valuable
conference time trying to assess whether someone may or may not be
interested in IGDA Indie stuff. Assuming you really are an indie,
you're probably paying many hundreds of dollars to be at the conference.
If you're going to spend *that* long yakking at someone, I hope it is
for purposes of a higher quality connection than simply handing out a
flyer.
"Are you interested in indie game development?" and hand extended with a
flyer is all you have to do. If they are, they'll take it. If they
aren't, they won't.
Hit 'em in the lunch line. They're not going anywhere, they got time to
read. Hit 'em anywhere they're standing around gawking at something.
Hit 'em when they're sitting around waiting for a lecture to start. Hit
'em when the lecture is boring them to tears and they're falling asleep.
"I know this *much* more interesting session...." Well, assuming the
Indie SIG ever gets a session going. Actually, I enjoy dragging people
away from boring sessions to stuff I'm more interested in, Indie SIG or
no. Got time to talk 'em up on the way.
If you really want to promote, you can certainly hand out more than 50
flyers. You can hit 'em as often as you've got energy for.
> There is also nothing
> stopping people from an informal gathering at a local pub
> etc. if someone is
> willing to declare a time and place.
Except logistics. Don't underestimate the difficulty of following
directions to a place you've never been to in a strange city. I heard
about this AI meeting and had halfway-remembered the directions to it.
It was near the conference center and should have been easy, or so
various people assured me. I spent an hour circling long city blocks
where it "should have been," then gave up.
You also need to know how large of a crowd you'll be servicing.
"Impromptu informal pub / restaurant gathering" works great for 6
people, less well for 12 people, really needs serious logistical
planning for any more than that. The MUD-Dev people are experienced at
this sort of thing. https://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev/ They
would typically congregate in front of the convention center at an
appointed time, wait for some time window, then march to destination en
masse. Of course, they have a lot of people to deal with, they've been
extant for a long time. This Indie SIG is still just figuring itself
out. You could ask "how many people know they want to meet up?" but I
bet right now, for this year, that number is small.
> At the very least talk things up - tell people it exists and
> get their card
> if they're interested and say you'll send them an invite to
> the list when you get back.
Talking people up is good. Bear in mind, however, that a flyer with an
e-mail address and a compelling list of bullet points *why* someone
should sign up is also good. There isn't time to talk up everybody, not
if you really want to move people in volume.
> This is where relevant roundtables are useful
> since you'll
> get a chance to announce you have some info for people if they're
> interested.
Don't be shy about making a 10 second elevator pitch for Indie SIG after
you've put in your $0.02 about a topic. The roundtable doesn't *have*
to be relevant. Everybody is at the conference to network.
> Granted these things aren't as good as an official meeting or
> a huge banner
> at the front of the conference center but they'll work. It's
> got to be a person by person effort at this point.
Person to person, the quality time approach, is good. But don't forget
person to herd.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From indies@igda.org Sat Feb 7 21:07:12 2004
From: indies@igda.org (Brandon J. Van Every)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:07:12 -0800
Subject: [IGDA_indies] IGDA Indie Logo WAS GDC indie-gathering
In-Reply-To: <40254056.6010500@anarkystic.com>
Message-ID:
Andy Smith
>
> I recall hearing about some need for some kind of logo for the Indie
> IGDA sig, so some quick work turned up this, let me know what
> you all think.
>
> Logo: http://www.anarkystic.com/images/igda_indie.png
Fan-f***ing-tastic!
I would only suggest adding color.
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/2004