[kj] Trump

Thu Nov 10 17:55:50 EST 2016

I can understand that you intended no offense, but there is a patronizing tone that detracts from any solid points you have to make.

Those of us who were surprised and dismayed at the EU referendum result were also accused of failing to understand that there's an alternative viewpoint. I'm still struggling with that one.

Jim.

On Thu, 10/11/16, Rheinhold Squeegee <kjlist at live.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump
 To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)" <gathering at misera.net>
 Date: Thursday, 10 November, 2016, 22:43

 Again, this is exactly why Trump got elected. You cannot
 fathom why everyone else can't see what is so obvious to
 you, yet your strategy is to presume there is no "other
 side" to the argument other than demonizing absolutes
 like "racism." You don't persuade;
  you attack and then take your ball and go home in a huff
 when you don't like the response.

 I certainly meant no offense; I was just engaging in a
 spirited debate. This is fairly typical, though, of the kind
 of reaction I see from both extremes of the political
 spectrum.

 I could not in good conscience vote for either candidate,
 and so I didn't. Sue me.

 From: Gathering
 <gathering-bounces at misera.net> on behalf of Alex Smith
 <vassifer at earthlink.net>

 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 3:32:34 PM

 To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!);
 A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump

 No, you should prepare yourself for an exit. I've been
 on the Gathering since about 1999 or so, and this is really
 the first time I've been put off enough to want to
 leave. 

 I strive to respect and understand the differences of
 opinion being expressed here, but I don't care enough
 about you specifically to bother engaging with it further,
 especially if you're going to couch each commentt with a
 put-down. It's not worth it,
  for me.

 If anyone else gives a damn, they know how to find
 me.

 Goodbye Gathering.

 -Alex in NYC

 -----Original Message----- 

 From: Rheinhold Squeegee 

 Sent: Nov 10, 2016 4:23 PM 

 To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)" 

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 a16-year-old daughter.

 Should we prepare ourselves for an argumentum ad
 passiones
 or simple moral relativism?

 From: GREG SLAWSON
 <gregslawson at msn.com>

 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 3:21:22 PM

 To: Alex Smith; A list about all things Killing Joke
 (the band!)

 Cc: Rheinhold Squeegee

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump

 A 9 y o girl

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Nov 10, 2016, at 4:13 PM, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
 wrote:

 Show of hands, please -- anyone here have any children? Just
 out of curiosity.

 Alex in NYC

 -----Original Message----- 

 From: Rheinhold Squeegee 

 Sent: Nov 10, 2016 4:12 PM 

 To: Alex Smith , "A list about all things Killing Joke
 (the band!)"

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 Which logical fallacy to start with... Maybe we should
 just go straight to confirmation bias.

 We get it; racism is bad. But to you it's the Worst
 Thing. And anyone that you believe contributes to the Worst
 Thing must also be the Worst Thing. HRC is many things:
 self-loathing woman; self-loathing white person; liar;
 exploiter; criminal, but she's not
  a racist, therefore she's not the Worst Thing.

 The anti-Trump crowd has learned nothing from yesterday.
 Instead, they're doubling down on the vitriolic rhetoric
 and the end result will be eight years of Trump instead of
 four. Better yet, assassinate him and lock things down for
 the next 20 years.

 Strong work. Keep it up.

 From: Gathering <gathering-bounces at misera.net>
 on behalf of Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>

 Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 2:03:40 PM

 To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!);
 'A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)'

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump

 To those who maintain that HRC and Trump were equally bad,
 please realize that for her myriad failings, Clinton
 isn't the one that's inspiring the type of bullshit
 detailed in this link...

 https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

 Alex in NYC

 -----Original Message----- 

 From: Mike Cooper 

 Sent: Nov 10, 2016 2:13 PM 

 To: "'A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)'" 

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 #yiv6376961337 #yiv6376961337 ZZZ--

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 Apologies for putting an opinion
 forward Brendan and for putting me in my place.  It’s
 true I am stupid, have no idea of anything nor
  know what the holy fuck I am on about.  Again people were
 not voting for her husband and she was exonerated for the
 emails rightly or wrongly. 

 If you read my email you will
 notice that like Alex I to do not like Clinton, but felt she
 is infinitely preferable to a bloke whose
  sole goal is to divide and rule, openly racist, lies,
 bullies and intimidates people without taking people for
 granted but is this not exactly what most gatherers I would
 imagine oppose.  Same with the outcome of Brexit something
 that will affect me, my family
  and friends now and certainly in the years to
 come. 

 But again Brendan answer my
 question how is Trump going to deal with people who are
 different?  Who oppose things he does?  Who exercise
  their democratic right to protest, oppose, speak out etc. 
 I did not see him denounce people at his rallies openly
 attacking people who do not support him.

 Sometimes Brendan you sadly have
 to pick the lesser of two evils,  but I still agree with
 Alex 100%.  You’ll have to deal with us and
  others in the same way we have to deal with him being in
 power.   

 From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of Brendan Quinn

 Sent: 10 November 2016 11:27

 To: 'A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)' <gathering at misera.net>

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 ‘Emails and a shit husband’
 – how in hell can you make an accurate comparison when you
 haven’t
  got the foggiest, faintest glimmer of an idea what the holy
 fuck you’re on about? 

 From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of Mike Cooper

 Sent: Friday, 11 November 2016 12:21 a.m.

 To: 'A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)' <gathering at misera.net>

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 Thanks Brendan for reminding me
 that being part of the supposed counter-culture actually
 means supporting a right-wing, racist,  homophobic,
  sexist, arrogant, selfish, ego maniac.  Silly me. 

 So as part of my “new”
 counter-culture actions,  tonight I am going to go to my
 local Mexican restaurant and ask the waiters to leave
  the UK as they are clearly all rapists.  Then I am going
 to go to my local pub and grab a few bar maids by the pussy
 because that is fine to do!  

 As a counter-culture fanatic and a
 self-employed person I am from now not going to pay any tax
 either.  Tax is for idiots and successful
  business men but maybe I will get bailed out by some rich
 Saudi’s.  

 As a counter-culture fanatic I
 will also now no longer listen to anyone else, take advice
 and kick the shit out of anyone who dares
  to disagree with me. 

 For the record you will probably
 won’t find one Gatherer who is fond of Clinton in anyway
 but as for options between the two – come
  on?  Emails and a shit husband over a Nazi what do you
 expect people to say?  But the fact that most people wanted
 a horrendous character like Clinton to win says it all about
 Trump.  But answer one question what do you really think
 Trump will make of counter-culture,
  alternative views, freedom of expression, thought, music,
 film etc.  Come on let me know?  Coz as far as I am
 concerned that side of things in America is fucked – from
 now on anyone with a slightly opposing point of view is
 going to be attacked, ridiculed
  and in the firing line in exactly the same way the post
 Brexit arse wiping right wing bigots now feel is okay to
 tell any non –white or non-English person to “get out of
 my country”. 

 As for being clueless about Brexit
 whilst the EU is far from perfect but it has pretty much
 already cost my brother his job as a UK
  chemist working in Sweden on a drug that cures cancer –
 his position to stay is becoming untenable with the company
 as the funding for this work is from the EU.  Also with
 regard to Brexit my own profession is reliant of the
 millions of pounds from the ERDF
  which is two years will go.  That means £178 million
 allocated to the economically poor black country for small
 business, infrastructure, transport, education and training,
 grants and environmental and community improvements WILL GO
 along with thousands of
  potential jobs.   

 But as with Trump and Clinton,
 Farage et al lied.  They lied about everything and the
 masses bought it.  As I said to a UKIP supporting
  acquaintance in the pub at the weekend who said Corbyns
 policies would bankrupt the country – “won’t he have
 an extra £350m a day to spend”? 

 EU has a lot of problems Brendan
 but I for one believe in communication, strategic thinking
 on the environment, global issues, fishing,
  migration and as someone who believes in counter-culture I
 believe in the ability, choice and personal freedom to go
 where the fuck I fucking like without someone telling me I
 can’t.

 As for the press everyone buys the
 press they choose to read. But in the UK 85% of ours is
 owned by three people – all right wing,
  tax dodging c***s basically who like US will influence
 people to suit themselves. 

 As for the emails do you not think
 Russia was behind that with Assange to bring in Trump –
 after all an America in turmoil is better
  for them and China.  

 Enjoy a Trump led America –
 perhaps you will now all get what you deserve but I for one
 seriously hope not.  But I also worry about
  where the world goes from here. 

 From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of Brendan Quinn

 Sent: 10 November 2016 10:16

 To: 'A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)' <gathering at misera.net>

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 That said, as Obama pointed out,
 the peaceful transition from one president to another - no
 matter how much they disagree - is the hallmark of
 democracy.

 BULLSHIT! Stop buying into platitudes and dead
 metaphors…and READ WHAT YOU JUST WROTE. So the most
 laudable act of a democratic citizen is to ensure the
 peaceful transition of power from one despot to
 another?! 

 Obama’s a fucking joke, he’s
 flushed the US Constitution down the shitter and here you
 are lapping up his GOBSHITE DRIVEL.

 The GroupThink / meme replication
 going on is beyond a fucking joke for a group of supposed
 counter-culture / free thinkers / subversives /
 whatever…I’m
  so sick of this false fucking narrative. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_of_the_Plebs

 The checks and balances on power
 have utterly gone down the gurgler, how anyone in the US
 could mention they’re a journalist
  without blushing is totally beyond me. 

 From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of jpwhkj--- via Gathering

 Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2016 10:55 p.m.

 To: gathering at misera.net

 Cc: jpwhkj at aol.com

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump 

 Yes - Margaret Thatcher promised
 to bring unity where there was discord, Dubya's speech
 in 2000 was similarly reconciliatory.  So it's standard
 stuff.

 That said, as Obama pointed out,
 the peaceful transition from one president to another - no
 matter how much they disagree - is the hallmark of
 democracy.
   So, much as I regret the result, and its likely impact on
 America and the rest of the world, it's democracy folks.
  Just gotta work harder to make the world a better place -
 more intelligent and more informed, more thoughtful, kinder.
  Most of us can't be
  Mandela, MLK, etc, but we all have the opportunity to make
 the world a bit better tomorrow than it is today.

 But yeah, I'm ashamed of the
 bigotry, hatred, & narrow-mindedness that's been
 tapped into and legitimised. 

 Jamie 

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Paul Rangecroft <paul.rangecroft at gmail.com>

 To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
 <gathering at misera.net>

 Sent: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 6:10

 Subject: Re: [kj] Trump

 Thank you, Alex, for brilliantly summing up how I feel. Most
 victors give those reconciliatory sort of acceptance
 speeches. I don't think they mean much. The
 morally-bankrupt thundercunt's ego will be through the
 White House roof. What did he have to do to
  lose? This election would have been more dignified if the
 respective parties had put up an actual donkey and elephant
 as candidates. I don't understand people anymore. Brexit
 was embarrassing but this has... well, Trumped it. The
 ancient Chinese could never
  have imagined times so "interesting". So many
 Killing Joke lyrics come to mind I don't know which one
 to quote. We're fucked. Democracy: ya foired! On
 11/9/16, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
  wrote: > I realize there are some sharp differences of
 opinion here on the Gathering, > but as someone who
 fucking LIVES here, let me just say that I am >
 incalculably ashamed to be an American today. > >
 Regardless of your stance on policy -- not that Trump
  ever actually > discussed any tangible policies -- how
 anyone could spend five minutes > listening to that
 fatuous bag of excitement attempt to string coherent >
 sentence together and think: "yes, that man should hold
 the most powerful > office in the so-called
  Free World" is FUCKING STAGGERINGLY BEYOND MY >
 COMPREHENSION. > > If you think he's a champion
 for the unsung ---> You are FUCKING FOOLING >
 yourselves. He DOES NOT CARE about you, and that will
 doubtlessly become > obvious in short, catastrophic
 order. >
  > > > If you think he's going to "shake
 things up" in Washington -----> You are a >
 fucking idiot. Putting Trump in the White House is like
 putting a lit > firecracker in a broken toaster. Is it
 going to shake things up? You betcha. > Is it going to
 fix anything?
  NOPE. > > The message we are sending to the world and
 to OUR OWN CHILDREN is that > racism, antisemitism, proud
 anti-intellectualism, nativism, white > supremacist
 ideals, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, the diminishment of a
 > woman's right to choose, bullying,
  demagoguery, incitement of violence, > avarice, wanton
 tax evasion, totalitarianism, climate change denial and >
 creationism ARE ALL PERFECTLY OKAY. > > If you're
 an American who voted for him here on the Gathering, you
 have > nothing but my undying contempt,
  and may the god of your choice forgive you, > because I
 sure as FUCK will not. > > I have many friends who are
 striving to make sense of this and espousing > messages
 of solidarity, fortitude and hope. I realize that's the
 correct > thing to do, and that in
  attempting same, I may find solace and comfort in > the
 words and actions of the many like minds, but I AM NOT THERE
 YET. > NOWHERE CLOSE. > > Being a dyed-in-the-wool
 native New Yorker, I have never had a great amount > of
 faith in my fellow American, because
  I am inherently a smug fucking snob, > and I am
 PERFECTLY OKAY WITH THAT. But, again, DO NOT BE FOOLED!!
 Trump > doesn't give fuck about the concerns of the
 American heartland's working > families. They were
 exploited and manipulated by his slavish appeals
  to the > lowest common denominator. > > It's
 simply pathetic. I am sickened to the very core. > >
 FUCK YOU, America. > > -Alex in NYC- > > >
 > > > > > > > > > > > >
 > > > >> -----Original Message----- >>
 From: Christophe Barry >> Sent: Nov 9, 2016 11:57 AM
  >> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke
 (the band!)" >> Subject: Re: [kj] Trump >>
 >> F*ckin’ ada >> >> De : Gathering
 <gathering-bounces at misera.net>
  on behalf of andreas misera >> via Gathering
 <gathering at misera.net>
  >> Répondre à : andreas misera <andreasmisera at yahoo.de>,
  "A list about all >> things Killing Joke (the
 band!)" <gathering at misera.net>
  >> Date : mercredi 9 novembre 2016 09:58 >> À
 : "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
 band!)" >> <gathering at misera.net>
  >> Cc : andreas misera <andreasmisera at yahoo.de>,
  "jpwhkj at aol.com" >>
 <jpwhkj at aol.com>
  >> Objet : Re: [kj] Trump >> >> Germans
 could say "Ach Du Scheiße" about that result.
 >> >> >> Rob Moss <rob.moss at gmx.com>
  schrieb am 12:44 Mittwoch, 9.November 2016: >>
 >> >> That's an "English" way of
 putting it!! >> >> Other words considered could
 be >> >> Gosh >> Golly >> my Lord!
 >> Steady on old chap! >> >> >>
 >> What a day Gatherers. What a day. >> >>
 >> On 9 Nov 2016,
  at 09:19, jpwhkj--- via Gathering <gathering at misera.net>
  >> wrote: >> >>> Blimey. >>>
 >>> >>>
 _______________________________________________ >>>
 Gathering mailing list >>>
 Gathering at misera.net >>>
 https://pairlist4.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
  >> >> >>
 _______________________________________________ >>
 Gathering mailing list >>
 Gathering at misera.net >>
 https://pairlist4.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
  >> >> >>
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