[kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!
Nick Scott
npscott at blueyonder.co.uk
Sat Apr 16 06:51:28 EDT 2016
Awesome, nice work Chris!
> On 16 April 2016 at 07:53 Chris Williamson <laughingchris at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did this the other day but it said that it was being moderated. I'll
> try again by attaching it rather than inserting it ........
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:28:08 +0100
> From: npscott at blueyonder.co.uk
> To: gathering at misera.net
> Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!
>
> I concur, now we just need a picture from 2016 of the wall from the
> correct angle sent to Colesy to morph into something odd or sinister. Look
> forward to reading your blog once finished.
>
> > > On 15 April 2016 at 19:01 Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Agreed -- once again, outstanding work, Paul. I'm planning on
> > condensing all of this on a single blog post. Watch for that soon.
> >
> > Alex in NYC
> >
> > > ---Original Message-----
> From: Neil Perry <65snoopy at gmail.com>
> Sent: Apr 15, 2016 3:52 AM
> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> band!)"<gathering at misera.net>
> Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!
>
> This is the greatest thing I've ever read on the Gathering. I'd
> like to call you Sir and give you a medal. Fantastic investigative work! Plus,
> I've never seen the inside sleeve photo before. Superb.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 14 Apr 2016, at 16:13, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com
> mailto:dubecho at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
> > > Greetings Gatherers,
> >
> > Just a couple of corrections and a bonus [Winking face]
> >
> > My spelling was never the best (or my grammar for that
> > matter lol) and spell check tends not to catch place names spelled wrong,
> > especially in Irish, but Creggan, is spelled with a double g (my excuse and
> > I'm sticking to it).
> > Next mistake. Bloody Sunday occurred on the 30th of January,
> > 1972. Not August as I stated previously. August though was always associated
> > with unrest in Derry, as the Apprentice Boys parades take place then, hence
> > it was in my mind.
> > July 10-12th was also another couple of days unrest was a
> > certainty, all across the North. As the Orange Lodges, would march and the
> > bonfires were lit.
> > Last mistake, I hope. I'm relearning my left and right
> > again. The City Cabs office, from the running soldiers picture
> > https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg , is of course on the bottom right corner,
> > not left as stated. Here Circled in blue https://i.imgur.com/dLu9b9d.jpg .
> >
> > Bonus: As I was looking through 100s of pictures, I came
> > across the inner sleeve too, here you go https://i.imgur.com/Qc7AWww.jpg .
> > [Smiling face with Sunglasses]
> >
> > With only having Google's and Bing's, satellite imagery to
> > work with, getting the angles and perspective is next to impossible, but you
> > get the idea.
> > The inner sleeve shot, was taken literally a stone's throw
> > away from the front cover shot http://i.imgur.com/N8HPJj2.jpg location (pun
> > intended [Face with stuck-out tongue and winking eye]). In fact if you look
> > closely at the original shot, you can see a gang of stone throwers in the
> > shadows across the road, to the left of the first lad running away from the
> > wall..
> >
> > In the next set of pictures, I have shown where I am
> > guessing Don McCullin, stood to take the pictures. Again due to the
> > limitations of the satellite pictures, angles are not 100% correct.
> > Also an old school photography camera, would have had a lot
> > of settings adjusted, i.e. shutter speed, film speed, and aperture. Lens
> > size to would be a factor. With it adjusted, depth of field, would play
> > tricks with the eye. Also remember, the row of houses, behind the wall were
> > not built then and the top 6 courses of blocks and cap stones, were not
> > there. So he would have had a clearer line of sight. The photos may well
> > have been cropped too. Here it is http://i.imgur.com/xBsdFI9.jpg and
> > another http://i.imgur.com/V5h3sGm.jpg . Google Maps
> > https://www.google.ie/maps/%4054.9961333%2c-7.320551%2c223a%2c20y%2c303.75h%2c69.67t/data=%213m1%211e3
> > & Bing Maps http://binged.it/1qrpOWX , should anyone want to try guess
> > better than I did.
> >
> > And finally, while looking at more of his photos, there is
> > one that has a sequence of 3 and was calling out to be made a GIF file. So I
> > did and here it is http://i.imgur.com/PmsvOZG.gif .
> >
> > So until I am up in Derry City, this June, or my friend
> > sends me a picture taken at the correct angle, that's all from me on the
> > matter.
> >
> > As you were,
> >
> > Paul aka dub 🤘
> >
> > On 13 April 2016 at 22:10, Alex Smith
> > <vassifer at earthlink.net mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net > wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > Fucking AMAZING work, Paul -- truly staggering.
> > >
> > > Stay tuned.
> > >
> > > Alex in NYC
> > >
> > >
> > > > > ---Original Message-----
> > From: Paul
> > Sent: Apr 13, 2016 4:32 PM
> > To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > band!)"
> > Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case
> > Solved!
> >
> > I'm not done yet ...lol
> >
> > I think I have it cracked. With the help of a friend
> > in Derry, Google Maps and perseverance! [Smiling face with Sunglasses]
> >
> > I was not able to let it go, so I asked a lad I
> > know, who is an amature photograpeher and lives in Derry, where he thought
> > it might be. He immediately said "that's up at Little Diamond". We already
> > knew it was in the Bogside https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogside area and
> > this is indeed in that area, on the way up to the Cregan and the topography
> > of the area matches. It's a small stretch of road at the top of William
> > Street, where the soldiers running picture was taken.
> > I found this old picture online
> > http://i.imgur.com/SiZxO5B.jpg and was able to focus on the top right hand
> > corner http://i.imgur.com/PF4Txvf.png , bear in mind this picture is from a
> > year later and taken as part of the inquiry into Bloody Sunday
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 , which happened
> > August '72, but still shows a wasteland area. This turns out to be the old
> > sorting office. So today that area looks like this
> > http://i.imgur.com/uPJrjx1.jpg (very bottom on left is where City Cabs is
> > from other picture) and a little closer like this
> > http://i.imgur.com/wGLMWKx.jpg . I'm not sure when the swimming pool was
> > built, but it could be what was the old sorting office building, which was
> > burnt out.
> >
> > So fellow Gatherers, without further adieu, I
> > present to you, what will be from this day henceforth, known as The KILLING
> > JOKE wall! http://i.imgur.com/OMHGpP0.jpg or what's left of it ...lol Maybe
> > someone with better PhotoShop skills than I, can do an overlay of the
> > Killing Joke, album cover on to the picture, but to my mind it all checks
> > out.
> >
> > I shall still refrain from giving my own opinion on
> > The Troubles, as it's a pointless exercise, that just stirs up old
> > grievances and emotions. Not something that will go away, but let's just be
> > thankful for things as they are. There is peace in Ireland, for now and long
> > may it last.
> >
> > I too enjoyed the look back and to be honest was
> > amazed at the amount of photographs and videos online documenting a time in
> > history, that is still hard to believe happened in our lifetime. I'll be up
> > that way in June, as part of this http://www.ventureoffshorecup.com/ , so
> > will try get a snap at the angle of the original and maybe get a gang of
> > lads to jump off it lol I've also asked the mate, to take a picture too, so
> > hopefully will have that soon, but in meantime Google Maps
> > https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Westland+St%2c+Londonderry%2c+Derry+BT48+9EU%2c+UK/%4054.9979733%2c-7.3274572%2c3a%2c15y%2c358.8h%2c91.08t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sNeOR_V2z-xp6GrppxRayGg%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m2%213m1%211s0x485fe179982200c1:0xa72a669f8224d865
> > , will have to do.
> >
> > If you've not seen the rest of Don McCullin's,
> > photos from Derry in '71, try here
> > https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/m/artist/don-mccullin/object/the-bogside-londonderry-northern-ireland-ar01187
> > , were picture 16/17, confirms the pictures location. Also you might like
> > Clive Limpkin's
> > http://www.ucd.ie/photoconflict/gallery/northernireland-thebattleofbogside/
> > , pictures from around the sametime. One of which ended up being a mural on
> > a gable down by the Free Derry Wall
> > https://www.google.ie/maps/%4054.9958896%2c-7.3269076%2c3a%2c75y%2c183.2h%2c89.59t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sowP1NQUYExn2NCCU0k8jHg%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%216m1%211e1
> > . Which incidentally looked like this http://i.imgur.com/jkLtLKb.jpg circa
> > '71 (and this http://i.imgur.com/kfsxITn.jpg ). Some other blurb on them
> > here http://clivelimpkin.com/tag/londonderry/ . The movie '71
> > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2614684/ too, gives a good look at the north at
> > that time and a different perspective, albeit fiction.
> >
> >
> > Anyway hope this helps you Alex, and rest of
> > Gatherers enjoyed it. I'm not going to bother put this on Facebook, but if
> > anyone else wants too, by all means do. Look forward to reading your blog
> > too Alex [Thumbs up sign]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12 April 2016 at 18:27, Brendan Quinn
> > <bq at soundgardener.co.nz mailto:bq at soundgardener.co.nz > wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > Cheers Paul, enjoyed the stroll back in time.
> > > The seventies are receding back into the past at quite a clip now innit,
> > > esp. with the passing of Bowie and Lemmy, amongst others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I’d heave a heavy sigh, but the old lungs
> > > aren’t up to it ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Gathering
> > > [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net ]
> > > On Behalf Of Paul
> > > Sent: Monday, 11 April 2016 7:39 a.m.
> > > To: Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net
> > > mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net >; A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > band!) <gathering at misera.net mailto:gathering at misera.net >
> > > Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Link to pic https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg
> > > (To big to embed in email on the list)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Not "the" picture, but from same series and
> > > quiet possibly same riot, is this McCullin, photo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just out of boredom, I was able to pinpoint it
> > > to William St, Derry. The building the soldiers are running past, is gone,
> > > just a market stall there now.
> > >
> > > The open door is to a company that was called
> > > City Radio Cabs and as can be seen in the picture, had a phone number
> > > 4466. The company is still there just at the back of where the stall is in
> > > the lower picture and called City Cabs now, but still has the same last 4
> > > digits in their number. The A D that can be seen, is from Bradley &
> > > McLaughlin undertakers, who still trade on the other corner of the street.
> > >
> > >
> > > As you can see all the buildings are
> > > relatively new, possibly 80s.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So again, to try hunt down the exact position
> > > of the album cover photo, would be next to impossible, unless you had been
> > > there as such.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I do hope you have more luck though, if you
> > > follow it up Alex.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8 April 2016 at 23:57, Paul
> > > <dubecho at gmail.com mailto:dubecho at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > On further examination of the picture,
> > > > the wall itself, looks like footings or foundations for a building.
> > > >
> > > > You can see what looks like bent rebars,
> > > > on the tops. So would be a substantial building or most likely a block
> > > > of low flats, 3 or 4 storeys.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of these were built in the 70s,
> > > > because in this particular part of the city, large amounts of houses
> > > > were burnt out for one reason or another, will leave that aspect to
> > > > another day : ) Interesting and long history.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also, the amount of building materials,
> > > > particularly roof ridge tiles, on the ground, would lead one to think it
> > > > was a building site anyway.
> > > >
> > > > The only other identifying parts to
> > > > buildings are the shutters on the gable of one of the houses. This is
> > > > possibly a shop, but many such shops in that part of the Bogside, but
> > > > again may well be long gone. Or may not even be a shutter at all and
> > > > just a corrugated zinc panel/sheets, they would have been used to shore
> > > > up burnt out houses. I've looked at other pictures taken by the
> > > > photographer at around the same time and although features recognisable,
> > > > they are just other parts of the same area and long since changed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So sorry, I can be of no help. Best bet
> > > > would be ask the man Don McCullin, himself. He is 80 and lives in
> > > > Somerset. He still exhibits, so may well be contactable, a chance to use
> > > > your journalistic sleuthing skills : )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Only other thing I can think of is ask
> > > > one of the Undertones, a band formed in that very place, not to many
> > > > years after : )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8 April 2016 at 22:51, Paul
> > > > <dubecho at gmail.com mailto:dubecho at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > Bogside, Derry, County Derry : )
> > > > > It comes from the Irish for a line of oak trees, Doire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Will have a look later and see if
> > > > > anything that stands out and might be able to use Google maps, but to
> > > > > be honest, I would not hold out much hope, as the original picture was
> > > > > from sometime in the 70s, when the troubles were still ongoing, but
> > > > > Derry, as with other cities in the north, has had a huge amount of
> > > > > work done in building and regeneration of areas hit hard, and the
> > > > > Bogside was one place that did get it bad unfortunately. Looks like it
> > > > > was in one of the housing estates (projects) too and them streets are
> > > > > identical for huge parts of the city.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice full size of original
> > > > > http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/AR/AR01193_10.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8 April 2016 at 22:39, Alex
> > > > > Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > Been attempting to compose a
> > > > > > longer piece on my silly blog about Mike Coles' iconic artwork for
> > > > > > the fist Killing Joke album, and it got me thinking ..... does that
> > > > > > very spot (the wall depicted in the shot).... still exist today?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I understand it (and
> > > > > > please jump in if you know more), the original photograph by revered
> > > > > > war photographer Don McCullin was snapped circa 1971 in an area
> > > > > > known as The Bogside in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It depicts a
> > > > > > "gang of boys" fleeing a CS gas attack .... as one would.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I cannot help wondering if
> > > > > > that wall is still standing, moreover if anyone has tracked it down
> > > > > > to do a sort "then and now" juxtaposition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I first spotted the original
> > > > > > McCullin photo in a huge book several years back in a photo book
> > > > > > store in SoHo, NY (sadly long gone ... now a lingerie emporium) and
> > > > > > letting out an audible gasp. I remember being disappointed that it
> > > > > > did not, in fact, feature the words KILLING JOKE scrawled menacingly
> > > > > > across the brickface.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are there any Irish
> > > > > > Gatherers who might know more?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Alex in NYC
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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