[kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

Nick Scott npscott at blueyonder.co.uk
Fri Apr 15 15:28:08 EDT 2016


I concur, now we just need a picture from 2016 of the wall from the correct
angle sent to Colesy to morph into something odd or sinister.  Look forward to
reading your blog once finished.

> On 15 April 2016 at 19:01 Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Agreed -- once again, outstanding work, Paul. I'm planning on condensing
> all of this on a single blog post. Watch for that soon.
> 
>     Alex in NYC
> 
>         ---Original Message-----
From: Neil Perry <65snoopy at gmail.com>
Sent: Apr 15, 2016 3:52 AM
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"<gathering at misera.net>
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on the Gathering. I'd like to call you
Sir and give you a medal. Fantastic investigative work! Plus, I've never seen
the inside sleeve photo before. Superb.

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Apr 2016, at 16:13, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com mailto:dubecho at gmail.com >
wrote:


>             Greetings Gatherers,
> 
>             Just a couple of corrections and a bonus 😉
> 
>             My spelling was never the best (or my grammar for that matter lol)
> and spell check tends not to catch place names spelled wrong, especially in
> Irish, but Creggan, is spelled with a double g (my excuse and I'm sticking to
> it). 
>             Next mistake. Bloody Sunday occurred on the 30th of January, 1972.
> Not August as I stated previously. August though was always associated with
> unrest in Derry, as the Apprentice Boys parades take place then, hence it was
> in my mind. 
>             July 10-12th was also another couple of days unrest was a
> certainty, all across the North. As the Orange Lodges, would march and the
> bonfires were lit.
>             Last mistake, I hope. I'm relearning my left and right again. The
> City Cabs office, from the running soldiers picture
> https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg , is of course on the bottom right corner, not
> left as stated. Here Circled in blue https://i.imgur.com/dLu9b9d.jpg .
> 
>             Bonus: As I was looking through 100s of pictures, I came across
> the inner sleeve too, here you go https://i.imgur.com/Qc7AWww.jpg . 😎
> 
>             With only having Google's and Bing's, satellite imagery to work
> with, getting the angles and perspective is next to impossible, but you get
> the idea.
>             The inner sleeve shot, was taken literally a stone's throw away
> from the front cover shot http://i.imgur.com/N8HPJj2.jpg  location (pun
> intended 😜). In fact if you look closely at the original shot, you can see a
> gang of stone throwers in the shadows across the road, to the left of the
> first lad running away from the wall..
> 
>             In the next set of pictures, I have shown where I am guessing Don
> McCullin, stood to take the pictures. Again due to the limitations of the
> satellite pictures, angles are not 100% correct.
>             Also an old school photography camera, would have had a lot of
> settings adjusted, i.e. shutter speed, film speed, and aperture. Lens size to
> would be a factor. With it adjusted, depth of field, would play tricks with
> the eye. Also remember, the row of houses, behind the wall were not built then
> and the top 6 courses of blocks and cap stones, were not there. So he would
> have had a clearer line of sight. The photos may well have been cropped too.
> Here it is http://i.imgur.com/xBsdFI9.jpg  and another
> http://i.imgur.com/V5h3sGm.jpg . Google Maps
> https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.9961333,-7.320551,223a,20y,303.75h,69.67t/data=!3m1!1e3
>  & Bing Maps http://binged.it/1qrpOWX , should anyone want to try guess better
> than I did.
> 
>             And finally, while looking at more of his photos, there is one
> that has a sequence of 3 and was calling out to be made a GIF file. So I did
> and here it is http://i.imgur.com/PmsvOZG.gif .
> 
>             So until I am up in Derry City, this June, or my friend sends me a
> picture taken at the correct angle, that's all from me on the matter.
> 
>             As you were,
> 
>             Paul aka dub 🤘
> 
>             On 13 April 2016 at 22:10, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net
> mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net > wrote:
> 
>                 > > 
> >                 Fucking AMAZING work, Paul -- truly staggering.
> > 
> >                 Stay tuned.
> > 
> >                 Alex in NYC
> > 
> > 
> >                     > ---Original Message-----
>                     From: Paul
>                     Sent: Apr 13, 2016 4:32 PM
>                     To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>                     Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!
> 
>                     I'm not done yet ...lol
> 
>                     I think I have it cracked. With the help of a friend in
> Derry, Google Maps and perseverance! 😎
> 
>                     I was not able to let it go, so I asked a lad I know, who
> is an amature photograpeher and lives in Derry, where he thought it might be.
> He immediately said "that's up at Little Diamond". We already knew it was in
> the Bogside https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogside  area and this is indeed in
> that area, on the way up to the Cregan and the topography of the area matches.
> It's a small stretch of road at the top of William Street, where the soldiers
> running picture was taken. 
>                     I found this old picture online
> http://i.imgur.com/SiZxO5B.jpg  and was able to focus on the top right hand
> corner http://i.imgur.com/PF4Txvf.png , bear in mind this picture is from a
> year later and taken as part of the inquiry into Bloody Sunday
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972) , which happened August
> '72, but still shows a wasteland area. This turns out to be the old sorting
> office. So today that area looks like this http://i.imgur.com/uPJrjx1.jpg
>  (very bottom on left is where City Cabs is from other picture) and a little
> closer like this http://i.imgur.com/wGLMWKx.jpg . I'm not sure when the
> swimming pool was built, but it could be what was the old sorting office
> building, which was burnt out.
> 
>                     So fellow Gatherers, without further adieu, I present to
> you, what will be from this day henceforth, known as The KILLING JOKE wall!
> http://i.imgur.com/OMHGpP0.jpg  or what's left of it ...lol Maybe someone with
> better PhotoShop skills than I, can do an overlay of the Killing Joke, album
> cover on to the picture, but to my mind it all checks out.
> 
>                     I shall still refrain from giving my own opinion on The
> Troubles, as it's a pointless exercise, that just stirs up old grievances and
> emotions. Not something that will go away, but let's just be thankful for
> things as they are. There is peace in Ireland, for now and long may it last. 
> 
>                     I too enjoyed the look back and to be honest was amazed at
> the amount of photographs and videos online documenting a time in history,
> that is still hard to believe happened in our lifetime. I'll be up that way in
> June, as part of this http://www.ventureoffshorecup.com/ , so will try get a
> snap at the angle of the original and maybe get a gang of lads to jump off it
> lol I've also asked the mate, to take a picture too, so hopefully will have
> that soon, but in meantime Google Maps
> https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Westland+St,+Londonderry,+Derry+BT48+9EU,+UK/@54.9979733,-7.3274572,3a,15y,358.8h,91.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNeOR_V2z-xp6GrppxRayGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x485fe179982200c1:0xa72a669f8224d865
> , will have to do. 
> 
>                     If you've not seen the rest of Don McCullin's, photos from
> Derry in '71, try here
> https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/m/artist/don-mccullin/object/the-bogside-londonderry-northern-ireland-ar01187
> , were picture 16/17, confirms the pictures location. Also you might like
> Clive Limpkin's
> http://www.ucd.ie/photoconflict/gallery/northernireland-thebattleofbogside/ ,
> pictures from around the sametime. One of which ended up being a mural on a
> gable down by the Free Derry Wall
> https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.9958896,-7.3269076,3a,75y,183.2h,89.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sowP1NQUYExn2NCCU0k8jHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
> . Which incidentally looked like this http://i.imgur.com/jkLtLKb.jpg circa '71
> (and this http://i.imgur.com/kfsxITn.jpg ). Some other blurb on them here
> http://clivelimpkin.com/tag/londonderry/ . The movie '71
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2614684/ too, gives a good look at the north at
> that time and a different perspective, albeit fiction.
> 
> 
>                     Anyway hope this helps you Alex, and rest of Gatherers
> enjoyed it. I'm not going to bother put this on Facebook, but if anyone else
> wants too, by all means do. Look forward to reading your blog too Alex 👍
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                     On 12 April 2016 at 18:27, Brendan Quinn
> <bq at soundgardener.co.nz mailto:bq at soundgardener.co.nz > wrote:
> 
>                         > > 
> >                         Cheers Paul, enjoyed the stroll back in time. The
> > seventies are receding back into the past at quite a clip now innit, esp.
> > with the passing of Bowie and Lemmy, amongst others.
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         I’d heave a heavy sigh, but the old lungs aren’t up
> > to it ;)
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net
> > mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net ] On Behalf Of Paul
> >                         Sent: Monday, 11 April 2016 7:39 a.m.
> >                         To: Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net
> > mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net >; A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > band!) <gathering at misera.net mailto:gathering at misera.net >
> >                         Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         Link to pic https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg (To big
> > to embed in email on the list)
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         Not "the" picture, but from same series and quiet
> > possibly same riot, is this McCullin, photo.
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         Just out of boredom, I was able to pinpoint it to
> > William St, Derry. The building the soldiers are running past, is gone, just
> > a market stall there now.
> > 
> >                         The open door is to a company that was called City
> > Radio Cabs and as can be seen in the picture, had a phone number 4466. The
> > company is still there just at the back of where the stall is in the lower
> > picture and called City Cabs now, but still has the same last 4 digits in
> > their number. The A D that can be seen, is from Bradley & McLaughlin
> > undertakers, who still trade on the other corner of the street. 
> > 
> >                         As you can see all the buildings are relatively new,
> > possibly 80s.
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         So again, to try hunt down the exact position of the
> > album cover photo, would be next to impossible, unless you had been there as
> > such. 
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         I do hope you have more luck though, if you follow
> > it up Alex.
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> > 
> >                          
> > 
> >                         On 8 April 2016 at 23:57, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com
> > mailto:dubecho at gmail.com > wrote:
> > 
> >                             > > > 
> > >                             On further examination of the picture, the
> > > wall itself, looks like footings or foundations for a building.
> > > 
> > >                             You can see what looks like bent rebars, on
> > > the tops. So would be a substantial building or most likely a block of low
> > > flats, 3 or 4 storeys. 
> > > 
> > >                             A lot of these were built in the 70s, because
> > > in this particular part of the city, large amounts of houses were burnt
> > > out for one reason or another, will leave that aspect to another day : )
> > >  Interesting and long history.
> > > 
> > >                              
> > > 
> > >                             Also, the amount of building materials,
> > > particularly roof ridge tiles, on the ground, would lead one to think it
> > > was a building site anyway. 
> > > 
> > >                             The only other identifying parts to buildings
> > > are the shutters on the gable of one of the houses. This is possibly a
> > > shop, but many such shops in that part of the Bogside, but again may well
> > > be long gone. Or may not even be a shutter at all and just a corrugated
> > > zinc panel/sheets, they would have been used to shore up burnt out houses.
> > > I've looked at other pictures taken by the photographer at around the same
> > > time and although features recognisable, they are just other parts of the
> > > same area and long since changed. 
> > > 
> > >                              
> > > 
> > >                             So sorry, I can be of no help. Best bet would
> > > be ask the man Don McCullin, himself. He is 80 and lives in Somerset. He
> > > still exhibits, so may well be contactable, a chance to use your
> > > journalistic sleuthing skills : )
> > > 
> > >                              
> > > 
> > >                             Only other thing I can think of is ask one of
> > > the Undertones, a band formed in that very place, not to many years after
> > > : )
> > > 
> > >                              
> > > 
> > >                             On 8 April 2016 at 22:51, Paul
> > > <dubecho at gmail.com mailto:dubecho at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > 
> > >                                 > > > > 
> > > >                                 Bogside, Derry, County Derry : ) It
> > > > comes from the Irish for a line of oak trees, Doire.
> > > > 
> > > >                                  
> > > > 
> > > >                                 Will have a look later and see if
> > > > anything that stands out and might be able to use Google maps, but to be
> > > > honest, I would not hold out much hope, as the original picture was from
> > > > sometime in the 70s, when the troubles were still ongoing, but Derry, as
> > > > with other cities in the north, has had a huge amount of work done in
> > > > building and regeneration of areas hit hard, and the Bogside was one
> > > > place that did get it bad unfortunately. Looks like it was in one of the
> > > > housing estates (projects) too and them streets are identical for huge
> > > > parts of the city.
> > > > 
> > > >                                  
> > > > 
> > > >                                 Nice full size of original
> > > > http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/AR/AR01193_10.jpg
> > > > 
> > > >                                  
> > > > 
> > > >                                 On 8 April 2016 at 22:39, Alex Smith
> > > > <vassifer at earthlink.net mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >                                     > > > > > 
> > > > >                                     Been attempting to compose a
> > > > > longer piece on my silly blog about Mike Coles' iconic artwork for the
> > > > > fist Killing Joke album, and it got me thinking ..... does that very
> > > > > spot (the wall depicted in the shot).... still exist today?
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                      
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                     As I understand it (and please
> > > > > jump in if you know more), the original photograph by revered war
> > > > > photographer Don McCullin was snapped circa 1971 in an area known as
> > > > > The Bogside in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It depicts a "gang of
> > > > > boys" fleeing a CS gas attack .... as one would.
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                      
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                     I cannot help wondering if that
> > > > > wall is still standing, moreover if anyone has tracked it down to do a
> > > > > sort "then and now" juxtaposition. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                      
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                     I first spotted the original
> > > > > McCullin photo in a huge book several years back in a photo book store
> > > > > in SoHo, NY (sadly long gone ... now a lingerie emporium) and letting
> > > > > out an audible gasp. I remember being disappointed that it did not, in
> > > > > fact, feature the words KILLING JOKE scrawled menacingly across the
> > > > > brickface.
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                      
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                     Are there any Irish Gatherers who
> > > > > might know more?
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                      
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                     -Alex in NYC
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                    _______________________________________________
> > > > >                                     Gathering mailing list
> > > > >                                     Gathering at misera.net
> > > > > mailto:Gathering at misera.net
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                    https://pairlist4.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                 > > > > 
> > > >                                  
> > > > 
> > > >                             > > > 
> > >                              
> > > 
> > >                         > > 
> >                          
> > 
> > 
> >                         _______________________________________________
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> > 
> > 
> >                     > 
> 
>                 
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