[kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

[Paul]

Greetings Gatherers,

Just a couple of corrections and a bonus 😉

My spelling was never the best (or my grammar for that matter lol) and
spell check tends not to catch place names spelled wrong, especially in
Irish, but Creggan, is spelled with a double g (my excuse and I'm sticking
to it).
Next mistake. Bloody Sunday occurred on the 30th of January, 1972. Not
August as I stated previously. August though was always associated with
unrest in Derry, as the Apprentice Boys parades take place then, hence it
was in my mind.
July 10-12th was also another couple of days unrest was a certainty, all
across the North. As the Orange Lodges, would march and the bonfires were
lit.
Last mistake, I hope. I'm relearning my left and right again. The City Cabs
office, from the running soldiers picture <https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg>,
is of course on the bottom right corner, not left as stated. Here Circled
in blue <https://i.imgur.com/dLu9b9d.jpg>.

Bonus: As I was looking through 100s of pictures, I came across the inner
sleeve too, here you go <https://i.imgur.com/Qc7AWww.jpg>. 😎

With only having Google's and Bing's, satellite imagery to work with,
getting the angles and perspective is next to impossible, but you get the
idea.
The inner sleeve shot, was taken literally a stone's throw away from the front
cover shot <http://i.imgur.com/N8HPJj2.jpg> location (pun intended 😜). In
fact if you look closely at the original shot, you can see a gang of stone
throwers in the shadows across the road, to the left of the first lad
running away from the wall..

In the next set of pictures, I have shown where I am guessing Don McCullin,
stood to take the pictures. Again due to the limitations of the satellite
pictures, angles are not 100% correct.
Also an old school photography camera, would have had a lot of settings
adjusted, i.e. shutter speed, film speed, and aperture. Lens size to would
be a factor. With it adjusted, depth of field, would play tricks with the
eye. Also remember, the row of houses, behind the wall were not built then
and the top 6 courses of blocks and cap stones, were not there. So he would
have had a clearer line of sight. The photos may well have been cropped
too. Here it is <http://i.imgur.com/xBsdFI9.jpg> and another
<http://i.imgur.com/V5h3sGm.jpg>. Google Maps
<https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.9961333,-7.320551,223a,20y,303.75h,69.67t/data=!3m1!1e3>
 & Bing Maps <http://binged.it/1qrpOWX>, should anyone want to try guess
better than I did.

And finally, while looking at more of his photos, there is one that has a
sequence of 3 and was calling out to be made a GIF file. So I did and here
it is <http://i.imgur.com/PmsvOZG.gif>.

So until I am up in Derry City, this June, or my friend sends me a picture
taken at the correct angle, that's all from me on the matter.

As you were,

Paul aka dub 🤘

On 13 April 2016 at 22:10, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Fucking AMAZING work, Paul -- truly staggering.
>
> Stay tuned.
>
> Alex in NYC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul
> Sent: Apr 13, 2016 4:32 PM
> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
> Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!
>
> I'm not done yet ...lol
>
> I think I have it cracked. With the help of a friend in Derry, Google Maps
> and perseverance! 😎
>
> I was not able to let it go, so I asked a lad I know, who is an amature
> photograpeher and lives in Derry, where he thought it might be. He
> immediately said "that's up at Little Diamond". We already knew it was in
> the Bogside <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogside> area and this is
> indeed in that area, on the way up to the Cregan and the topography of the
> area matches. It's a small stretch of road at the top of William Street,
> where the soldiers running picture was taken.
> I found this old picture online <http://i.imgur.com/SiZxO5B.jpg> and was
> able to focus on the top right hand corner
> <http://i.imgur.com/PF4Txvf.png>, bear in mind this picture is from a
> year later and taken as part of the inquiry into Bloody Sunday
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)>, which happened
> August '72, but still shows a wasteland area. This turns out to be the old
> sorting office. So today that area looks like this
> <http://i.imgur.com/uPJrjx1.jpg> (very bottom on left is where City Cabs
> is from other picture) and a little closer like this
> <http://i.imgur.com/wGLMWKx.jpg>. I'm not sure when the swimming pool was
> built, but it could be what was the old sorting office building, which was
> burnt out.
>
> So fellow Gatherers, without further adieu, I present to you, what will be
> from this day henceforth, known as The KILLING JOKE wall!
> <http://i.imgur.com/OMHGpP0.jpg> or what's left of it ...lol Maybe
> someone with better PhotoShop skills than I, can do an overlay of the
> Killing Joke, album cover on to the picture, but to my mind it all checks
> out.
>
> I shall still refrain from giving my own opinion on The Troubles, as it's
> a pointless exercise, that just stirs up old grievances and emotions. Not
> something that will go away, but let's just be thankful for things as they
> are. There is peace in Ireland, for now and long may it last.
>
> I too enjoyed the look back and to be honest was amazed at the amount of
> photographs and videos online documenting a time in history, that is still
> hard to believe happened in our lifetime. I'll be up that way in June, as
> part of this <http://www.ventureoffshorecup.com/>, so will try get a snap
> at the angle of the original and maybe get a gang of lads to jump off it
> lol I've also asked the mate, to take a picture too, so hopefully will have
> that soon, but in meantime Google Maps
> <https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Westland+St,+Londonderry,+Derry+BT48+9EU,+UK/@54.9979733,-7.3274572,3a,15y,358.8h,91.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNeOR_V2z-xp6GrppxRayGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x485fe179982200c1:0xa72a669f8224d865>,
> will have to do.
>
> If you've not seen the rest of Don McCullin's, photos from Derry in '71, try
> here
> <https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/m/artist/don-mccullin/object/the-bogside-londonderry-northern-ireland-ar01187>,
> were picture 16/17, confirms the pictures location. Also you might like Clive
> Limpkin's
> <http://www.ucd.ie/photoconflict/gallery/northernireland-thebattleofbogside/>,
> pictures from around the sametime. One of which ended up being a mural on a
> gable down by the Free Derry Wall
> <https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.9958896,-7.3269076,3a,75y,183.2h,89.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sowP1NQUYExn2NCCU0k8jHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1>.
> Which incidentally looked like this <http://i.imgur.com/jkLtLKb.jpg>
> circa '71 (and this <http://i.imgur.com/kfsxITn.jpg>). Some other blurb
> on them here <http://clivelimpkin.com/tag/londonderry/>. The movie '71
> <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2614684/> too, gives a good look at the
> north at that time and a different perspective, albeit fiction.
>
>
> Anyway hope this helps you Alex, and rest of Gatherers enjoyed it. I'm not
> going to bother put this on Facebook, but if anyone else wants too, by all
> means do. Look forward to reading your blog too Alex 👍
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 April 2016 at 18:27, Brendan Quinn <bq at soundgardener.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Cheers Paul, enjoyed the stroll back in time. The seventies are receding
>> back into the past at quite a clip now innit, esp. with the passing of
>> Bowie and Lemmy, amongst others.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’d heave a heavy sigh, but the old lungs aren’t up to it ;)
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net] *On Behalf Of *
>> Paul
>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 April 2016 7:39 a.m.
>> *To:* Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>; A list about all things
>> Killing Joke (the band!) <gathering at misera.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside
>>
>>
>>
>> Link to pic https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg (To big to embed in email on
>> the list)
>>
>>
>>
>> Not "the" picture, but from same series and quiet possibly same riot, is
>> this McCullin, photo.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just out of boredom, I was able to pinpoint it to William St, Derry. The
>> building the soldiers are running past, is gone, just a market stall there
>> now.
>>
>> The open door is to a company that was called City Radio Cabs and as can
>> be seen in the picture, had a phone number 4466. The company is still there
>> just at the back of where the stall is in the lower picture and called City
>> Cabs now, but still has the same last 4 digits in their number. The A D
>> that can be seen, is from Br*ad*ley & McLaughlin undertakers, who still
>> trade on the other corner of the street.
>>
>> As you can see all the buildings are relatively new, possibly 80s.
>>
>>
>>
>> So again, to try hunt down the exact position of the album cover photo,
>> would be next to impossible, unless you had been there as such.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do hope you have more luck though, if you follow it up Alex.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ​
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 April 2016 at 23:57, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On further examination of the picture, the wall itself, looks like
>> footings or foundations for a building.
>>
>> You can see what looks like bent rebars, on the tops. So would be a
>> substantial building or most likely a block of low flats, 3 or 4 storeys.
>>
>> A lot of these were built in the 70s, because in this particular part of
>> the city, large amounts of houses were burnt out for one reason or another,
>> will leave that aspect to another day : )  Interesting and long history.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, the amount of building materials, particularly roof ridge tiles, on
>> the ground, would lead one to think it was a building site anyway.
>>
>> The only other identifying parts to buildings are the shutters on the
>> gable of one of the houses. This is possibly a shop, but many such shops in
>> that part of the Bogside, but again may well be long gone. Or may not even
>> be a shutter at all and just a corrugated zinc panel/sheets, they would
>> have been used to shore up burnt out houses. I've looked at other pictures
>> taken by the photographer at around the same time and although features
>> recognisable, they are just other parts of the same area and long since
>> changed.
>>
>>
>>
>> So sorry, I can be of no help. Best bet would be ask the man Don
>> McCullin, himself. He is 80 and lives in Somerset. He still exhibits, so
>> may well be contactable, a chance to use your journalistic sleuthing skills
>> : )
>>
>>
>>
>> Only other thing I can think of is ask one of the Undertones, a band
>> formed in that very place, not to many years after : )
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 April 2016 at 22:51, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bogside, Derry, County Derry : ) It comes from the Irish for a line of
>> oak trees, Doire.
>>
>>
>>
>> Will have a look later and see if anything that stands out and might be
>> able to use Google maps, but to be honest, I would not hold out much hope,
>> as the original picture was from sometime in the 70s, when the troubles
>> were still ongoing, but Derry, as with other cities in the north, has had a
>> huge amount of work done in building and regeneration of areas hit hard,
>> and the Bogside was one place that did get it bad unfortunately. Looks like
>> it was in one of the housing estates (projects) too and them streets are
>> identical for huge parts of the city.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nice full size of original
>> http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/AR/AR01193_10.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 April 2016 at 22:39, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Been attempting to compose a longer piece on my silly blog about Mike
>> Coles' iconic artwork for the fist Killing Joke album, and it got me
>> thinking ..... does that very spot (the wall depicted in the shot)....
>> still exist today?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I understand it (and please jump in if you know more), the original
>> photograph by revered war photographer Don McCullin was snapped circa 1971
>> in an area known as The Bogside in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It
>> depicts a "gang of boys" fleeing a CS gas attack .... as one would.
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot help wondering if that wall is still standing, moreover if
>> anyone has tracked it down to do a sort "then and now" juxtaposition.
>>
>>
>>
>> I first spotted the original McCullin photo in a huge book several years
>> back in a photo book store in SoHo, NY (sadly long gone ... now a lingerie
>> emporium) and letting out an audible gasp. I remember being disappointed
>> that it did not, in fact, feature the words KILLING JOKE scrawled
>> menacingly across the brickface.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there any Irish Gatherers who might know more?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Alex in NYC
>>
>>
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