[kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

[ade]

For average volk, Hitler was a godsend, having fixed a lot of the post-WWI economic problems, building an industry that kept a lot of people employed - ie, they could eat/live again. As far as they were concerned Hitler was keeping his promises.
 
That the economic improvements were down to corruption & immoral practices did not matter (theft/bullying/anything really), as long as it stayed covered-up for long enough. Nazi methods, rotten to the core.
 
So there would've been plenty capitalists that didn't go along with it to save their necks, but were intimidated/beaten into submission. There would be those industries that were just trying to survive - to get a huge cash injection from the govt to build shit like VW cars, etc, would be a life-saver to someone who's trying to keep a business afloat. There are many reasons & there are of course also plenty who knew exactly what was going on. The arms industry thrived, obviously.
 
It's easy to generalise - try swapping the word 'capitalists' with 'blacks' & feel how uncomfortably the rhetoric rolls off the tongue.

-----Original Message-----
From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]On Behalf Of GREG SLAWSON
Sent: 13 June 2009 04:20
To: gathering
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



 I'm not saying that all upper class individuals supported or built up the Nazis. I'm talking about a very very specific term, yes, the capitalists, the owners of big industry, finance, and such. Of course many wealthy people hated and even fled the Nazis, just as many wealthy people in the US hate Republicans, etc. But every country has a class that rules, and there are factions of that class that hold most of the political power at any one time. These people sit on boards of dircectors of banks, industries, universities...THey run think tanks that set government policy. They lobby politicians. And, in Germany in the 30s, they pushed the Nazis into power to save their brand of capitalism (and a look at history will tell you that German capitalism in the pre-WWII period was completely fucked, largely as a result of losing WWI).

  _____  

Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:46:29 +0000
From: jimharper666 at yahoo.co.uk
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



I suspect that any attempt to either blame 'capitalists' (rather vague term, there) for Nazi atrocities or to identify the German upper classes with the Nazis isn't going to get terribly far. As a previous poster pointed out, vast numbers of wealthy Germans fled when the election results were in- this would be unlikely to happen if (a) they all supported the Nazis, or (b) were 'slipping them into power'. I have to say, I have German relations who would probably be quite shocked to hear that their moderately wealthy grandparents were responsible for 'slipping' the Nazis into government...
 
Jim.

--- On Sat, 13/6/09, GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com> wrote:



From: GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
To: "gathering" <gathering at misera.net>
Date: Saturday, 13 June, 2009, 12:38 AM


I don't think the previous poster was saying anti-Semitism popped up from nowhere. It had to be built over time. But the main point to me is that the capitalists were willing to use Nazism to save their asses, even if it meant exterminating millions (liberal democracy is the 1st choice for capitalists--it's neater and easier to manage--but fascism is the norm when they can't rule the other way.
 

  _____  

From: bettedillinger at live.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:28:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

WTF?  Anyone with any disposible income whatsoever was fleeing Nazi Germany once they got into power.  There was a dearth in the professional classes after Hitler took power.  The "volk" were forced to stay behind.  Sure, there are exceptions to every rule but please.  Re:  anti semitism, Mein Kampf, outlining the process by which Hitler would exterminate the Jewish population was published in 1929 (? not sure on exact year).  If that wasn't a warning shot, I don't know what is one.  Anti Semitism just didn't pop up with Hitler's crew anyway.  
 

  _____  

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:14:19 -0700
From: saulomar1 at yahoo.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia


I also read that at the start, that the people were not as anti-semitic as people think they were, 
but that the anti-semitism didn't really go bonkers until some years later. Kinda like here with the 
whole anti-immigrant thing. Kinda.
 
... ... ... ... ... ... 

[looking at the current state of things..]
 

'Save me...
  save me from Tomorrow..
    I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'   
 



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From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen.l at live.com>
To: "gathering at misera.net" <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:05:07 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

i believe a lot let intellectualism rule over humanism and thereby bought into the master race myth 
 

  _____  

From: gregslawson at msn.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Yes, I've read that too-that the Nazis had quite a big base of support among doctors, teachers, and groups like that. Any one read the book about the Nazi doctors?
 

  _____  

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:15:02 -0700
From: saulomar1 at yahoo.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



> The Nazis were ushered into power 

 
   Curious fact about those guys that, contrary to what alot of people think of extremist political types, them there Nazis were, on average, about 30yrs. of age, white, male, with a college degree and of the professional class. 
 
 
 
... ... ... ... ... ... 

[looking at the current state of things..]
 

'Save me...
  save me from Tomorrow..
    I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'   
 



  _____  

From: GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com>
To: gathering <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:31:31 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Good points Bette. I think that the business class NEEDED the Nazis to survive (and they got what they needed--a fusion of corporations w/the government, complete social control, lowered wages, blaming the victim, etc). The Nazis were ushered into power w/the cooperation of the "liberal" social democratic parties. THe big issue is not so much how many voted for Hitler, but that the rich class slipped them into power to serve their economic/political needs. If the German  Communist Party had actually tried to lead armed opposition to the Nazis (which they didn't), history might have been different.
 

  _____  

From: bettedillinger at live.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

The "people did not start listening" en masse, as we are led to believe.  Hitler won about 32% of the "popular vote".....correct?  he then, like so many fascists, offed the opposition.  I mean, his relationship with the Catholic Church is a case in point.  Used until he could abuse.  I just am being a stickler about this because everyone thinks that Hitler got into power with this sweeping majority after the Weimar Republic.  World War I, and its economic repercussions, also seem to be the elements that "paved the way for Hitler".  But it is an unfortunate fallacy that so many want to blame the rise of Hitler on the "debauchery of the Weimar Republic".  
 
Bette
 

  _____  

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:32:57 +0100
From: ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia


Yeah man (sorry, I'm listening to Big Youth), the advanced democracy that was the Weimar republic pathed the way for the Nazis. Things were fine until the economy started going tits. Then more people started listening to what uncle Adolf had to say...

-----Original Message-----
From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]On Behalf Of sade1
Sent: 10 June 2009 23:27
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



> ..Germany was fucked after WWI....

 
Didn't Germany go thru some level of success/prosperity during the Weimar period before the Nazis came up?
 
 
... ... ... ... ... ... 

[looking at the current state of things..]
 

'Save me...
  save me from Tomorrow..
    I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'   
 



  _____  

From: Brendan <bq at soundgardener.co.nz>
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:01:50 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

I can't see how the circumstances are similar. Germany was fucked after
WWI, they also were forced to take the blame for what was essentially a
european arms race that culminated in a war, and pay large reparations
(although I don't think they ever paid much). The UK is in a much
different position now....isn't it?


>

> i wouldn't be so sure , the nazi's came to power under similar

> cicumstances and generally the masses can be quite fickle and easily

> swayed

>

>> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:36:33 +1200

>> From: bq at soundgardener.co.nz <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bq@soundgardener.co.nz> 

>> To: gathering at misera.net <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gathering@misera.net> 

>> Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

>>

>> A proportion of that vote would include those who aren't so much racist,

>> rather they reject the current immigration policies but haven't thought

>> through the issues and are ignorant of who they are voting for...I think

>> as the world population increases, economic woes continue on and wealth

>> moves from west to east, we'll be seeing more of this kinda stuff. And

>> the

>> fasists will attempt to capitalise on it. Long term they can always be

>> relied on to shoot themselves in the foot though.

>>

>> >

>> > that 1 in 17 shows you how many '' closet racists '' there are in this

>> > country

>> >

>> > a fact most of the country is in self denial over

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:54 +0100

>> > From: MichaelHead at HBOSplc.com <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MichaelHead@HBOSplc.com> 

>> > To: gathering at misera.net <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gathering@misera.net> 

>> > Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > it's an interesting premise "defend democracy" when roughly 1 person

>> in 17

>> > voted for BNP in the EU elections as opposed to say Benn's Labour who

>> > polled roughly 1 in 7. surely the act of protesting against this

>> party's

>> > policies is anti-democratic?

>> > what concerns me more, is why so many people (nearly 1 million) are

>> that

>> > disaffected that they would vote this outright fascist party in the

>> first

>> > place.

>> > we're a little lucky the proportional representation system used in

>> these

>> > elections runs at regional rather than national level, otherwise

>> they'd

>> > have had 4 of the 72 elected as opposed to 2.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > From: gathering-bounces at misera.net <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gathering-bounces@misera.net> 

>> [mailto: gathering-bounces at misera.net <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gathering-bounces@misera.net> ]

>> > On Behalf Of folk devil

>> > Sent: 09 June 2009 18:27

>> > To: gathering at misera.net <http://uk.mc259.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gathering@misera.net> 

>> > Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

>> >

>> >

>> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8091605.stm

>> >

>> > "Members of Unite Against Fascism, a new group supported by trade

>> unions

>> > and MPs from all parties, including Tory leader David Cameron, and

>> veteran

>> > left wing campaigner Tony Benn, said they wanted to "defend democracy"

>> > against what they regard as the "fascist" and "racist" policies of the

>> > BNP.

>> > One told the crowd his message for Mr Griffin was: "Wherever you go in

>> > this country we will make sure you are welcomed by demonstrations."

>> >

>> > Glad it's happening, but this could also promote the BNP.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.

>> >

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>> > Mound, Edinburgh EH1 1YZ. HBOS plc is a holding company, subsidiaries

>> of

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>> Authority.

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>>

>>

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