[kj] Jaz Straw

[The Exorcist]

This will be my last post in regards to this subject.
I apologize to anyone bothered by this religious banter.

Once again I'd like to point out that way I say here is
in regards to Judaism. I do not speak for any other
religion or belief.

Errr, using wiki as a source is not highly valued by me.
(I also don't see the relevance of Tanach with this discussion.
Or of the wiki link. Navi'im (prophets) starts way after Abraham.)
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Noah had "encountered god" as well. Way before Abraham. He is also
not considered a prophet.

However in the spirit of equality I'll do some wiki as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham
(you'll notice that Judaism is not mentioned in 
reference to Abraham as a prophet)

If you try to find the terms of "prophet" with "Abraham" you'll see that
it's quoted mainly in association with Islamic beliefs.
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"On the other hand, in the history of the People 
of Israel, not everyone who established a direct 
contact with the Lord was a navi (prophet): so 
Adam, Cain, Avimelekh, King of Gerar, who had 
direct contact with the Lord, but were not 
prophets. In connection to the latter, this is 
the only place where Abraham is called a navi, 
"Now therefore restore the man's wife: for he (Avraham) is a prophet,"
( we'ata hashev eshet ha'ish ki navi hu). 
Nevertheless, in Jewish tradition Moses is deemed to be the first ."
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/jewish/navi1.html

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[some Hebrew wording is not mentioned here but the translation is.
My mail program has issues with hebrew fonts]

A careful reading of the text reveals a change in 
Abraham's service of God. When Abraham first 
arrived in the Land of Israel, he built an altar 
and dedicated it "to God Who had appeared to him" 
[Gen. 12:7]. This prayer expressed Abraham's 
gratitude for his own personal spiritual 
achievements. 'To God who appeared to him' ­ just 
to Abraham, the holy prophet in his own private spiritual realm.
(http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/ravkook/LECH64.htm) 
(famous Jewish Rabbi/Scholar)

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My point is, that Abraham is not considered a 
prophet. His "prophecies" were only
in regard to his personal life and offspring. His 
spreading the message of monotheism
had nothing to do with the "words of god" and was 
started before he had any "prophecies"

(quote scarlet: "and a Prophet  is a person who has directly
encountered God, of whose intentions he can then speak,
which to me at least makes 'em messengers)

This will be my last post in regards to this subject.
I apologize to anyone bothered by this religious banter.

Best Wishes,
Yos

At 03:14 PM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
>well, most sincerely, Abraham and Moses are both "prophets" and a
>Prophet  is a person who has directly encountered God, of whose
>intentions he can then speak, which to me at least makes 'em
>messengers.
>
>Now admittedly this is not the same as messiah. But I think you'l find
>Abarham is thought of as a prophet, just like Mosses, and therefore a
>messenger of God.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh
>
>Will
>Love
>  ALWays
>
>Scarlet
>
>On 10/13/06, The Exorcist <killingjoke at speakeasy.net> wrote:
>>
>>In Judiasm:
>>
>>Abraham is considered a forefather not a messenger.
>>
>>The first one referred to as "messenger of god" is Moses.
>>
>>I am not referring to the origin of the Jewish ppl. I am simply stating that
>>Abraham (according to Jewish belief) is not considered a messenger.
>>
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Me :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 05:28 PM 10/13/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>Dude,
>>
>>Abraham...first Jewish Patriarch whom God chose 
>>to bless...He was the guy who started Judaism - geeze!
>>
>>While not exactly messianic, without Abraham, 
>>there's no Jewish, Muslim or Christian faith. 
>>Even  Mormons consider Abraham as fundamental to their faith.
>>
>>Many of the religous traditions of the Jews come from Abraham's life.
>>
>>Plus, Abraham is the ony guy I know who 
>>actually had a fight with god - I mean fisty cuffs.
>>
>>
>>Will
>>  Love
>>   ALWays
>>
>>Scarlet
>>On 10/13/06, The Exorcist < killingjoke at speakeasy.net
>> > wrote:
>>Jews consider Abraham as a messenger from god???
>>
>>Why can't we just stick with this http://www.johnofgod.com/ and leave it be?
>>
>>My 3 cents...
>>
>>At 04:44 PM 10/12/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>Wrong again dick!
>>
>>Islam believes that Jesus was a messenger from 
>>God. Some Christians (Eastern Orthodox) believe 
>>Jesus IS God as a man. Though Catholic and some 
>>Protetant sects believe Jesus was a messenger 
>>from God. Christians and Muslims and Jews 
>>believe Abraham was a messenger from God.
>>
>>The Religions are 'fundamentally different' 
>>because their basic principles of worship are 
>>different - though I doubt you even know what a principle is.
>>
>>Will
>>  Love
>>   ALWays
>>
>>Scarlet
>>
>>On 10/12/06, flight Bringer < 
>>flightbringer at hotmail.co.uk> wrote: Also 
>>Christianity , Islam and Judaism all believe in 
>>the same God , so it would be incorrect to 
>>label them "fundamentally different". The 
>>difference lies in whom they believe to be the messenger of God .
>> >From: Jim Harper 
>> <jimharper666 at yahoo.co.uk > >Reply-To: "A list 
>> about all things Killing Joke (the >band!)"< 
>> gathering at misera.net> >To: "A list about all 
>> things Killing Joke (the 
>> band!)" ><gathering at misera.net > >Subject: Re: 
>> [kj] Jaz Straw >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 
>> 21:08:38 +0100 (BST) > >So it's possible to 
>> follow two fundamentally different 
>> religions? > >   You're such a twat. This 
>> whole monumental stupidity act is 
>> indeed >primarily an act, but what kind of 
>> idiot do you have to be to think 
>> that >permanently portraying yourself as 
>> mentally sub-normal is funny? 
>> Amazing. > >flight Bringer < 
>> flightbringer at hotmail.co.uk> 
>> wrote: >   ******Christian Jews are a small 
>> sect of who consider themselves to 
>> be >Christians . They are mainly Jews who have 
>> converted to Christianity and >they are seen 
>> as a threat to the Jewish Religion .
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