[kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?

Ross O'Donoghue gathering@misera.net
Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:44:37 +0200

Just a couple of points.....
1. I think we should probably leave off getting excited about Peter West
now, as the whole thing was obviously quite a leg-pull.. and some of us at
least have twigged who was probably behind it. As usual, some are too dull
to get the joke....
2. AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED (thought I would try capitals, as this phrase is
obviously otherwise invisible to some eyes) the whole notion of 'tolerance'
has to do with living and letting others live, and not that much to do with
the peculiar notions of the few thought-police hanging around here who seem
inordinately concerned that we think the 'right' things. I happen to carry
around a whole bag of rather unwholesome prejudices, and I frankly doubt if
there are many of us who have thoroughly exorcised these ....I despise all
forms of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and rarely have much time for
their adherents. I also hate the falseness of the term 'Xtian' - why fly in
the face of history and obscure an intelligible term with a silly neologism
that adds nothing? Or is the 'x' a kiss for a man betrayed by one?
I find most queers extremely dull and irritating company, and would like to
see all the modest head-scarved women of Islam and their cloistered
Christian counterparts stripped naked, horsewhipped and gang-raped by herds
of goats in public. I won't even get started on the Jews....( I find most
Buddhists amiable fools, and have little beef with Hindus)
BUT....THE POINT IS......FREEDOM &TOLERANCE ( on my terms, of course) are
the ONLY social principles worth having, and they encompass all others. I
would be the first to take up arms and leap into the trenches in defence of
the rights of any of the above-mentioned  pains-in-the-fecking-arse to
continue to add to my existential discomfort. This doesn't actually  require
that I like any of them. (Jacques Chirac should be shot).
So, now, take it easy : we're not the same.
Ye have been warned!

----- Original Message -----
From: culture.virus <culturevirus@mindspring.com>
To: <vassifer@earthlink.net>
Cc: <gathering@misera.net>
Sent: 20 Aralęk 2003 Cumartesi 21:53
Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Are we still talking about Evanescence here?

> At 08:42 PM 12/19/03, Alex wrote:
> >Okay, here we go....
> >
> >"Alex, do you not see your own hypocrisy?"
> >
> >No, but I *DO* see a big middle finger pointed right at YOU!
> I thought you might not.
> >"You and many others on the Gathering have blasted Peter for his
> >about the 'sword of Islam' and then you turn around and paint all Xian
> >musician's art as moot simply
> >because of their religious beliefs?"
> >
> >You may notice, I wrote: "1. They're Christians, which renders their
> >instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." There is a *HUGE* difference
> >between
> >decrying an entire faith as zombified zealots sworn to the abject
> >of all non-believers and expressing the opinion that "Christian Rock"
> >sucks so
> >bad that it's not even worth discussing...once again, AS FAR AS I'M
> I agree that there is BIG difference of scale. Nor was I implying that you
> have decried Xians as a whole. That being said you have made a prejudicial
> statement when you say "They're Christians, which renders their music
> instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." You have prejudged all endeavors
> at music by Xians to be of such a nature as to "suck a giant bag of greasy
> dicks."
> >  Peter was talking about warfare, I was discussing entertainment. Does
> >expressing my disdain for Evanescence's music mean that I think all
> >Christians are
> >the enemy? No, but it means I think their weak -ass attempts at rock suck
> >giant
> >bag of greasy dicks.
> >
> >"Bruce Cockburn is a Xian is his body of work moot?"
> >
> >I've never been a fan
> Nor am I a "fan" but it's obvious that his work in the singer/songwriter
> subgenre of rock is of very high stature.
> >"What about Dylan?"
> >
> >I've *NEVER* been a fan of Bob Dylan
> Maybe, but that doesn't undermine the "fact" that his work is legendary.
> Not to mention the fact that his Xian era works were probably among the
> most musically complex of his entire career.
> >*What about any number of classical composers?"
> >
> >That's not Rock.
> >
> >"And what about reggae?"
> >
> >That's not Christian, and technically, that's not rock either.
> AFAIC all modern music owes a good deal of it's roots to the blues and
> therefore rock as well. Reggae is a post rock and roll genre.
> >"Is it all moot because of their religious beliefs?"
> >
> >I never said that. My point was that Christian Rock sucks...a statement
> >stand behind.
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft of
> musical value? You don't even have to hear it, it just automatically
> Do you ever stop and wonder why right leaning people in the US accuse the
> left leaning of being elitist?
> >"After all a great deal of reggae is overtly religious in it's lyrical
> >content."
> >
> >True, but that's reggae.
> >
> >"Does Cat Stevens automatically suck because of his allegiance to Allah?"
> >
> >Did I ever suggest as much?
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft of
> musical value?
> >"Do Live automatically suck because of the Buddhist slant?"
> >
> >No, they automatically suck BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVE!!!!!
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft of
> musical value?
> >" When are you and the other members of this list going to see that
you're as
> >prejudiced and hateful as the people you condemn?"
> >
> >Number one, I'm not PRE-JUDGING Evanescence. I've had the TREMENDOUS
> >MISFORTUNE of hearing their music....thus, my judgement of them is based
> >on the
> >evidence, not on preconceptions.
> No you're not prejudging Evanescence, you're prejudging all acknowledged
> Xian Rock as sucking. In fact if I stripped your statement out of it's
> original context you stated that any music by a Xian is moot. You don't
> that as being prejudicial? So as I tried to say before the list, you
> included, were slagging Peter for the trait of prejudice, a trait most of
> us see as a negative. IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in
> stance because you don't automatically despise the output of people who
> of other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since
> it would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact
> hypocritical.
> Now most people, yourself included, might say that this is a minor issue,
> we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone observing this list
> the outside would see that we hold popular music in high esteem. We value
> it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for it's potential to impact
> popular thinking and change society as we know it. So to automatically
> write off an individual artists output solely because of their faith is to
> not only limit your own listening choices, but it says something about how
> you view Xians as a whole if you are so willing to write off their
> endeavors in a media that you hold in very high esteem.
> >Moreover, after fourteen years of Catholic
> >education, I feel no qualms about speaking out about a faith I was raised
> >within.
> And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing
> nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this with your parents
> and possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously horribly scarred.
> >" BTW I'm no fan of Evanescence either."
> >
> >How nice for you.
> >
> >Alex in NYC
> >reply to home e-mail: vassifer@earthlink.net
> I am culturevirus
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